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Sudden African Grey biting

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Sudden African Grey biting

Postby Dharmaserf » Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:13 pm

Hi all,

First, I want to say thank you for this wonderful resource and community. This is my first post. Sadly, it is because of a sudden behavioral shift with my African Grey. I wish it were under better circumstances. I'm also writing from mobile, so pardon any mistakes.

So my partner and I live with Delta, who is 13, and has been very good up until about a week ago. We've had him 5 years.The only issue he has a screaming issue that we just mitigated with distraction and so on. Delta is more bonded with my female partner, but he likes me too.

Background to this week: my partner is in Copenhagen and has been away for a month. We skype with Delta every once in a while. She won't be back for two weeks and then only for a few days before she goes away again for another week and a half. I had a busy winter and have been enjoying my two weeks off, spending a lot of time playing video games and skyping with friends while Delta sits beside me. Leading up to last week, I noticed Delta was escalating his screaming, and my guess at the time was that he didn't like my attention on the computer. Unless he's sitting beside me, or on my hand, he dislikes the lack of attention. So I'd always bring him over when I was on it. A factor is that in our house set up, my back is to his cage when I'm on it. So I tend to mitigate this by bringing him over. Well once the screaming escalated I decided to try starting to train him out of it. I would leave the room until he either started making good noises or after ten seconds and then would give him lots of attention. It was the next day, about a week ago, that the biting started.

The problem: suddenly, whenever I started putting him down, he would randomly bite me hard. Sometimes no, sometimes yes. Now, in response I did everything wrong--in hindsight, but also because it had always worked before. I made a big deal, because I was in pain and adrenaline. Screamed, yelled and so on. Showed him my bleeding hand. He maybe bit me a couple times before and this always made him feel bad, and say sorry and want to give kisses to apologize. So maybe 3 times in the last 5 years? But this time he just kept doing it.

My terrible response: The first two days I was making a big show and also actually getting hurt. I also started researching how to deal with this and realized my mistake. So, I started trying to withhold attention for bad behavior and lavish him for good. Coincidentally, I was also starting work again on Monday. So for the last few days I was gone alot and then also trying to use attention for reward/punishment. I think I did that wrong too. Two nights ago I didn't try to pick him up, I just wanted him to be comfortable with me and I spent the whole night talking to him and giving him attention. He seemed happier and also wanted to be near me. He flew onto my knee and enjoyed being on it. But I had to go out for the night so I gave him my hand and he stepped up happily and then chopped down so hard he tore my flesh. I was devestated. In fact I couldn't sleep that night cause I think I was traumatized. I just kept picturing and reliving it. It took me a bit to get over it but yesterday when I got home from work I caned everything. I made him new cage toys, a cardboard box and nesting materials for his play pen. I talked cheerily with him the whole time, etc. And, when I let him out of his cage he wanted to come with me. So he stepped up and sure enough went for the bite. This time however, I blew in his face, said "no" calmly and firmly, then gave him a dirty look. Then went back to cheerfully talking to him on my hand. He was nervous, but not bitey. This happened a few times but the blowing immediately stopped the biting and we could chill together. He wanted to be on my the whole night. In fact it took him forever to get him to go to bed cause he didn't want off.

Today: he's feeling better, I'm feeling better, but he's reeealy wanting my attention, but more than that, to be on me somehow. So, building off last night I would pick him up and blow when he tried to bite. It worked. He still not quite his normal self. He's anxious and even when next to me on computer, he's good for 10 then wants to be on me. This is fine--except!--as of 30 minutes ago, the blowing at him stopped working. He bit hard again and didn't stop til I put him down next to me. But then he wanted on me again! I've taken a break, because I need to calm down, but I am working through this. Now I'm wondering if the blowing is fine but the dirty look after the bite is no good. I think I will try immediate praise after he stops biting. This is where I'm at now.

Analysis: possible separation anxiety because the partner is gone. But, he was fine for a month. Hormones? Maybe, I noticed he was getting up earlier and I bought him better food a week and a half ago. It would explain the sudden shift. Lack of stimulation/attention? I think so, because he is so attention seeking now. If he is hormonal though I wonder if that is problematic with attention. Idk.

My phone is dying I will send more updates. Just needed to talk.
Dharmaserf
Parrotlet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 10
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: African Grey
Flight: Yes

Re: Sudden African Grey biting

Postby Dharmaserf » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:42 pm

I've narrowed down the behaviors that are abnormal for Delta. There are two. The first is wanting to be on me constantly--and a deep concern when I'm not in eyeshot. This is abnormal in its degree. He was mildly concerned before and easily molified when I wasn't around, but generally didn't mind. He also enjoyed my company, but not to this degree. The last two days he's been obsessive. The second is the biting of my hand. He wants to step up but then bites when there. At first blowing on him ameliorate this, but that technique has stopped working. He's back to hard biting.

My thoughts: the first thought I have is that he's hormonal. The attachment and biting wouId then stem from some hormonal attachment and desire. The second is that I somehow triggered feelings of abandonment (along with my partner being away) that led to biting. My subsequent week of work (though I took today off to be with him) and attempt to train him with affection/ignoring triggered a neurotic response.

Response: I'm being patient and limiting opportunities for him to bite by not using my hands or limiting him on me, while simultaneously being present and talking to him. I'm also going to limit his exposure to sunlight. I will try and increase veggies and fruits in his diet. He's a picky eater.

Other thoughts welcome!
Dharmaserf
Parrotlet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
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Types of Birds Owned: African Grey
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Re: Sudden African Grey biting

Postby Wolf » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:57 pm

My first thought is hormones and is probably in pain due to overly large gonads. The factors that controls a parrots reproductive cycles are food and light. I am not sure where you live so I don't know the length of the days and nights during the different seasons of the year, but if you live far enough north then this is going to be a problem as the days get too long during the summer and too short during the winter and that might be able to be corrected by artificial lighting. The biggest problem with this is that their internal biological clock is actually set and reset by the two twilight periods that occur at dawn and again at dusk.

The other factor is food, parrots mate when there is an abundance of food, but not just any food, it has to be high in protein so that they have it to raise their young as their young need to grow very fast. It also give them the energy to keep up with all of the extra work require to care for their young.

The reason that we need to be aware of these things is also twofold. the first reason is that too much protein increases aggression due to the increased hormones and then there is what happens internally with the parrot. When the parrot is not hormonal its gonads are about the size of a pea and when the bird goes into breeding condition these gonads grow up to 100 times larger in size. This is fine and is normal, but if either the photoperiod or the protein rich foods prevent the bird from shutting down the production of hormones the gonads do not shrink back down to their normal resting size, they keep on growing and eventually reach a size that starts causing the bird pain and the longer that this continues the more painful this condition becomes. Eventually the gonads will begin pressing on and displacing other internal organs. At some point the bird reaches the point that it can not tolerate being touched and just keeps biting whenever it is touched. Imagine your gonads clamped in a vise that keeps getting tighter and you will understand the birds reaction.

This is the first thing that I would have checked out by an avian vet, I believe that this would show up on an X-ray.

I would also check the protein level in the food that you are giving him. I would also look into his total diet as well as when what foods are being provided to him. We can help with the diet and I believe that Pajarita has information for setting up a lighting setup and schedule if needed.
Wolf
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Re: Sudden African Grey biting

Postby Pajarita » Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:35 am

Hi, Dharma and Delta, welcome to the forum.

By the name you are using, I am assuming that you are Indian, please correct me if I am wrong because I am making assumptions on the diet Delta is on from this and I would not want to offend you.

Now, for what I can surmise based on postings by people in Asia (again, this is an assumption and would welcome your correcting me if I am wrong), it's very common for them to free-fed sunflower seeds and peanuts to their parrots. If this is the case with Delta and you are keeping him up at night (this is based on your postings), he is, most definitely, overly hormonal and, if this has been going on for 5 years, he is in deep discomfort if not constant pain. This pain and the production of too many sexual hormones added to the diet will, eventually, end up in aggression. People usually don't believe this because, in their minds, if the diet was bad, they would have seen something before - I mean, five whole years with no problem and all of a sudden, big problem? It doesn't sound very logical to us... But parrots are not like people. They are, actually, very patient animals and, when there is something not quite right, they simply put up with it, hoping it will improve until, one day, they cannot wait any longer and all hell breaks loose! What I am trying to say is that just because nobody noticed anything before, it doesn't necessarily mean that there was nothing going on.

I think that the problem was made worse by your partner 'abandoning' your parrot. I know that she did not really 'abandon' him but, in his mind, she did because parrots live their entire lives surrounded by their family all the time and the only time one leaves is when they die. And he waited an entire month for her to come back but she never did and now, he has lost hope and is acting up. Added to this is the fact that you had a completely different schedule/routine because she wasn't there and, without meaning to, change his routine, too - parrots do NOT like change.

So we have an overly hormonal bird that is, most likely, in pain and which has lost his human and, the human left behind which was familiar to him changed the routines and was paying him less attention than before (instead of more to make up for the loss of his human). Parrots are not hard-wired to adapt easily so changes and absences are real hard for them to overcome and, if you look at it from this point of view, you will understand why he is now biting.

What to do? Well, I would put him on a strict solar schedule, a good fresh food diet with a reduction of protein intake (if necessary, you did not mention what his diet was) and I would pay a whole lot more attention to him.
Pajarita
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Re: Sudden African Grey biting

Postby Dharmaserf » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:03 pm

Thanks for your replies.

First, I'm not South Asian, I'm Canadian. Second, we don't keep him up at night. He has a cage with block out curtains at the window. Though our schedule is late, Delta sleeps in. We give him generally 10 hours of sleep. He has been on a seed diet, which we don't like but is what his previous owner gave him. We've tried various ways to impliment pellets but he just won't take them. So we give him the healthy people food we eat as suppliment.

Yesterday was fine in the morning, but he tore another chunk out of my hand in the evening, so i had to put him in the cage. And go first aid myself.

Practically speaking, my goal is now how to have him out of the cage but have me be able to move him without a bite. He wants to fly onto me now, which I would be fine with, if it wasn't for the biting. He used to do it before. We live in an open concept apartment, so he can get anywhere.

Given what I noticed yesterday, I'm actually now leaning towards feelings of abandonment as a primary cause. Honestly, I don't know!

I think that what I really need some suggestions with are how to stop the biting. I've been reading and researching for hours the last few days and I actually haven't found much helpful in my particular case. For example:

"The way I avoid a bite is: I offer my hand to the bird - if he backs way, I retreat; if he lifts his foot, I let him step on; if he moves toward me (and I trust him), I let him move in to be petted. The key to everything appears to be an ability to read body language. [When I offer a treat to a biter, I put the treat in a small ceramic bowl and let him take it from there, not from my hand.]"

This is obvious. This is how it's been for 5 years. Show the hand, if he doesn't want it, then we leave him alone, or offer a treat as encouragement. He trusts us. It's been fine for 5 years. What's happening in my case is that he wants on the hand, but then either immediately or within 10 seconds starts chomping. He flaps his wings and leans forward with a kind of "gimme" that he reserved for food.

I think what I'm looking for short-term is practical strategies. I read about T-stands being useful. We've never used one before, I'd have to search around for one at a pet store. And then train him to use it. I've read gloves are no good because it forces compliance instead of desired behavior. Any suggestions?
Dharmaserf
Parrotlet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 10
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: African Grey
Flight: Yes

Re: Sudden African Grey biting

Postby Dharmaserf » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:06 pm

Oh also, I've read for hormones, don't feed carbs, fats, or protein. What else is there?! I've heard more fruits and veggies. Fruits are carbs? No. Veggies I get, but he's so picky with them. And when you say strict, you mean nothing but? I'm afraid that would traumatized him even more to be honest.
Dharmaserf
Parrotlet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 10
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: African Grey
Flight: Yes

Re: Sudden African Grey biting

Postby Wolf » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:05 pm

In my first reply to you, I was going to remark as to how lucky you are to have a Grey that accepts both you and your Lady as mine is strictly a one person bird. And it is based on your description of the interactions between you, your Lady and this bird that caused me to not think that feelings of abandonment were the reason for his behavior.

To me this sounds as if it a hormonal issue, I am sure that your vet could confirm this either by X-ray to check for overly enlarged gonads or by checking for the presence of elevated hormone levels.

Regardless of the cause, unless it is due to your Lady's absence there is no quick remedy for this behavior. An all seed diet is high in carbs, and fat and always contribute to increased aggression when fed too much. Pellets are better in some respects, but they are also high in carbs, fats and proteins, but they do have a more balanced nutrition due to the addition of vitamins and minerals as well as being ground so that the bird can not pick out what it wants too.

As far as getting my birds to eat more fruits and vegetables, I take a lesson from wild parrot parents and how they teach their young to eat the right foods. It takes into account that parrots sharing food is a social event as well as a bonding activity. Any way the parents will bring back pieces of the food and will eat it in front of their young and then go after more. They do this while the young birds ask for this food and then beg for the food and still do not offer them any of the food. They make the young bird have to steal a piece of the food from them. They do make it pretty easy for the young parrot to steal a bite but the young bird must want it enough to try to steal it. I don't make them have to steal it, but I do wait until the bird is demanding the food. Every parrot that I have responds to this as they always want their share of any food that I eat, even if all they do is spit it out once they get it.

Body language is a big help in avoiding getting bitten, but you should be aware that the holding out of one foot in front of them is a parrots natural way of saying stay back. This can make it confusing when a parrot has bee taught to use their foot to ask to step up, you will have to look for other body language to assist in deciding what the parrot is trying to convey.
Wolf
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Re: Sudden African Grey biting

Postby Dharmaserf » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:49 pm

Thank you Wolf,

It feels nice to have you acknowledge that I'm lucky the bird likes me.

So I'm wondering, practically, if it is hormonal, what can I do to know when it is ok for him to step up onto me? Or what kinds of things can I do to make it safe. Presently, I'm very avoidant, which I know is bad, but my hand is a wreck. If he is hormonal, this makes me feel better because he will go back to normal. But when? And what can I do to mitigate any biting until then, so I can feel free to let him out of his cage the way I used to? (He used to be out as much as he wanted, because he rarely caused trouble and was so easy to manage if he did.) Thanks!
Dharmaserf
Parrotlet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 10
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: African Grey
Flight: Yes

Re: Sudden African Grey biting

Postby Wolf » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:51 pm

I have been thinking about you and Delta and this biting situation, so I have gone back over your postings to see if any thing other than being hormonal jumped up in my mind that could be a cause for this problem.

While I still think that being overly hormonal is part of the problem, partly due to a diet that is seed heavy and partly due to the current light schedule, it is also possible that he is mad at you. possibly for ignoring him while you are on the computer. My Grey, Kookooloo, is not very much concerned with me being on the computer at this time, but she is a real terror if I touch a remote control or a telephone and for several minutes after I have touched one of them she will bite me hard and repeatedly.

So it is not my intention to rule out any of what has been offered, but to suggest that it is a combination of factors that is behind the biting. For instance the fact that he likes you is very good and has probably kept the biting down, he could still be mad because your Lady is gone. To this, I would have to ask you what are his reactions when you skype with your Lady with him there? does he tend to be more aggressive after you skype with her? I am assuming that when you skype with her that you are using the video features of skype.

What is going on the other times that Delta feels the need to bite, are you on the computer or just finishing up on it? Hs your Lady's absence caused a change in his daily routine in any way? A change in feeding times or types of interaction? Not getting a specific treat at a given time that he may have come to expect?

Head down about level with body or slightly lower with wings partly open, could be a sign of aggressiveness, I know that it is with Kookooloo.

Is Delta clipped or not? I may have just missed it but don't recall. Does Delta play with toys? If yes, what kind of toys? Does he have any favorite ones? Do you have a small stuffed toy that he likes that could be used to place between his beak and you when he shows signs of aggression?

Can you give him enough fruits and vegetables that he will eat so that he is not overly hungry during the day and then just feed him the seed mix in the evenings? Many seed mixes have a lot of sunflower seeds in them. Sunflower seeds are very high in fats and are sort of like a drug to most parrots and are a cause of increased aggression, more so than most of the other seeds in the mix. These could be sorted out and reserved for training treats or just the occasional treat during the day without a reason. My point is that it may take a few days to have an effect but is they are contributing to his aggression, reducing the amount of the rather substantionally should begin to reduce his aggression.

without being able to observe him over a period of time it is very difficult to say what all may be a factor or not and for that reason I am suggesting several things that I have noted with my own Grey that appear to be similar with what you have posted about Delta, as well as asking the questions that I have. Trying to cover as many bases as I can until we can narrow it down.
Wolf
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Gender: This parrot forum member is male
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Number of Birds Owned: 6
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Flight: Yes

Re: Sudden African Grey biting

Postby Dharmaserf » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:29 pm

Hi Wolf,

Thank you so much for taking the time to talk about this with me. I've thought of most of the things that you have said but it's nice to hear them from someone else. There are just so many factors! It's hard to pinpoint the ones that make a difference.

One of the things I have wondered is if he was mad at me at the start and then things just escalated. When he is not beside me at the computer he does occassionally get upset and scream, but then if I put him beside me he enjoys my company. However, I was skyping a bit, and maybe that annoyed him (he'd want more kisses and chirp while it was happening). But also, was literally on my hand and chilling while this was happening. I could sense after a bit he'd get a little annoyed. I'm just not sure. When I think back to the couple days before he started biting he did seem to be wanting my attention more than usual--but I don't know if it was because my attention was focused elsewhere or if it was the hormones. For the last month I had a lot of time off, so I was home and on the computer the same general amount.

He's curious when she's skyping but only vaguely. He notices, but doesn't do anything exciting like dance or whatever. He pins his eyes and then goes back to what he was doing etc. As for schedule, he doesn't really have a standard one except to be let out of his cage once the house is out. He often wants a human food treat within the first couple of hours, so we usually oblige.

Delta is not clipped. He has some toys--basically our kitchen table is his play area and we have bottle caps, and cardboard, and things for him to throw off. Yesterday I put a new box on it and cut up a bunch of newsprint and pizza boxes as nesting material. I wanted both to entertain him and distract him from needing my constant attention. I also wanted to test if he was hormonal to see if he made a nest. I sat with him for 15 minutes while he played but then he was just realllly wanting to be on my knee while on the couch. That is normally family time in the evening. He doesn't have a small stuffed toy, but that is a good idea. He has a medium sized one, but its not something he's particularly keen on.

As for getting him on fruits and veggies, I went out and bought a bunch today and was trying to get him to forage in his cage. He just isn't that keen on them. So, I actually think he would just starve himself if I only gave him fruits and veggies in the day, especially if I went out to work. Though, maybe if I went out, and then gave him seed when I got home he'd associate me? IDK. And if I was away, he might actually force himself to eat it. I read somewhere that someone swore by the cold turkey method regarding shifting to pellets. We tried to take the sunflower seeds out of his diet a year ago, but it basically failed after a few attempts. He would just not eat without them. We couldn't find a way. Also, or schedules were quite randomly busy all the time (though usually one of us was home) and often it just became easier to give up. I know, our bad, but we didn't seem to be able to make it work.

One last question. I've kept him in the cage all day, while giving him tons of attention. I just needed a day not to worry. He seemed be more chill and relaxed either when he was distracted with food or I was outside smoking (i just quit 6 weeks ago, but am on a vape). But when I give him 15 minutes of uninterrupted attention (which I've done a lot today), its doesn't seem like it makes him feel better even though he obviously wants it. When I got back from a jog he was chill until I started giving him attention. Tomorrow, I'm going to do a normal day until I have to go out in the evening. So... I guess my question is how relevant is this data? hehe. I can tell he really wants out of his cage, as he's used to being out for most of the day. But, we'll see if he goes back to being needy/bitey. hehe

Really, for me its just the biting. I saw this video earlier with the raised hand for distraction. I haven't tried it yet, but will give it a shot tomorrow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJaAUvA ... 6btC5-caei
Dharmaserf
Parrotlet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 10
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: African Grey
Flight: Yes

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