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Height Dominance - Myth or Reality?

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Height Dominance - Myth or Reality?

Postby Michael » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:27 pm

Ok, so in many of the parrot books I've read (most of them are 5-20 years old), they discuss height dominance in companion parrots. Basically they say that you shouldn't let your parrot be higher than you or it will try to dominate you and bite. I wonder if anyone finds this to actually be true?
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Re: Height Dominance - Myth or Reality?

Postby lzver » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:00 pm

I've never had a problem with this.

The only normal place they hang out that is higher than me is their cages. Their behavior doesn't change and they don't show any dominance over me.

If they fly to somewhere else in the house that is higher than me, its usually because they got spooked by something. They are always eager to come to me in this situation because they are usually in a place they are not familiar with. This happens more with Jessie because he gets spooked easier than Lucy does. If Lucy flies somewhere she knows what she is doing and usually has a purpose. If its safe for her to be there, I'll let her stay for a few minutes while I keep my eye on her and then she'll step-up right away when I ask her to.

I've also never had a problem with letting Lucy or Jessie be on my shoulder. Jessie loves riding around the house on my shoulder and tries to preen my hair.
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Re: Height Dominance - Myth or Reality?

Postby Pola » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:16 pm

lzver wrote:I've never had a problem with this.


neither did i. i do not think that their behaviour change
Pola :D
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Re: Height Dominance - Myth or Reality?

Postby notscaredtodance » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:21 pm

It's amazing how much misinformation there is out there, and I would definitely not consider myself an "experieced" parrot owner at all, but I do do a LOT of research, and when it comes to this, I forget the video/article but the basic idea was

-parrots don't live in hierarchies, they live in large communities and work together, and even further than that, tend to have 1 mate that they bond closely with and work with. So a parrot getting dominant over a bonded owner just doesnt make sense.

-most people mistake dominance bites with fear bites. Parrots will move up a persons body as high as they can get when they are uncomfortable.Then if they still feel uncomfortable,they might bite as displaced aggression, or, say the person wants them down off their shoulder and holds their hand out, the parrot bites the hand because it does not want to step down.This isnt a dominant bite, but a fear/self-preservation bite.


and for my own two cents, i let my bird sit on my shoulder for hours at a time while im on the computer/watching tv. I think she bites me to get attention, not to show dominance. If Im really focused on a movie she'll go from preening my cheek to trying to get at my ears, in which case i usually have her step up on my finger (which she does gladly) and move her to my lap where i give her head scritches, and she's content. (i realize this seems like i'm rewarding her for biting, but i consider it rewarding her for gentle bites to get my attention, rather than very rough bites.)

I may have some flawed logic because I am very very new to parronting, so I'd love to hear if people think I could be doing something better.
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Re: Height Dominance - Myth or Reality?

Postby Michael » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:37 pm

It's better to completely ignore bites and instead reward practically anything else. For instance if you prefer the parrot to be more still and less feisty on your shoulder, then it is your duty not to forget about it when it's up there. Otherwise, yes it will try to seek your attention by biting your ear or screeching right in it. So instead, when the parrot is sitting quietly, then offer it attention and comfort.

Also, I hope you realize that if you are with your parrot "for hours at a time" now, you should expect that to be the case for life. Once the parrot is used to getting a lot of out time and attention per day, it's really hard to go back and keep it locked up for longer periods of time if you ever have to travel or get a different job. Even when I have all day to spend with my parrot, I still limit out of cage time to something I know I can manage on busier days. On occasion, I will skip days of either interacting or letting her out at all so she doesn't become too needy. This way when I go away on day trips or long vacations, I don't have to feel too guilty that she is alone. Pois are pretty good at being left alone but it's important not to spoil them so much that they don't want to go back to being that way.

I'll let people post some more of their thoughts on this dominance debate and offer my own insight later on.
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Re: Height Dominance - Myth or Reality?

Postby pchela » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:02 pm

I believe height dominance is a myth. As notscaredtodance said, parrots in the wild are cooperative community animals who live in pairs or family groups without flock leaders. My senegal will step up for me from a high cabinet that is out of my reach (I have to get a step stool) as easily as he will from the floor. On the occasions that he does get nippy and not want to step up, it has not been based on how high he is above me. There is absolutely no reason to try to maintain dominance over your parrot or to think that he wants to be dominant over you. It's just not how parrots think or operate. What they need is a relationship based on mutual respect and trust such as the relationships achieved via positive reinforcement training.

As for Michaels comment about spending time with your parrot. While it may be true for a baby parrot, one who has just been brought home, that you should only spend the amount of time you will normally be able to spend, I don't believe this is true for older, established parrots. My parrots are out almost all of the time that I am home (minus an hour or so of "quiet time" in the afternoons). When I was working, they'd be in their cages most of the day and adjusted well to the schedule. They just know that when I come home, they get to come out shortly thereafter. When they are out, they are not constantly with me either. They have play tops on their cages with lots of toys and they have foraging trees. I believe that freedom outside of the cage while not interacting with their owner is equally important to quality time spent with the owner. I see their cages as a place to sleep or to keep them safe when I'm not able to supervise them. I don't feel that keeping Kili in her cage for entire days while you are home is going to make any difference to how she does when you are away for a few days. To me, the neediness they display is simply their basic need for socialization because they are, after all, flock animals and being alone goes completely against their natures. Does Kili ever play by herself while outside the cage or is all of her time spent with you?
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Re: Height Dominance - Myth or Reality?

Postby notscaredtodance » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:34 pm

I'm not sure how it works for my situation. I've basically been bonded to my parrot for 6 months because she was at the pet store that I work at for that long. I wasn't even planning on getting her because of the time requirement and I just didn't feel fully ready for a commitment to a bird, but then I found out they'd be moving her to another store and I made a bit of an impulsive buy (it was 3 days, but still).

So really, for 6 months she's been used to me being "around" for 6 hours a day, not even every day, only 5 days a week- but I was working when I was there. I really only got to socialize with her for maybe 20 minutes tops while feeding/cleaning her cage. Now that she's home with me, I'm gone 6 hours a day, and spend from 2 pm to 8 pm with her. This is more hands on interaction, rather than just quick hellos as I pass by her cage at the store.

And when I said I spend "hours at a time" with her I more mean, I'm available to her for a 6 hour chunk of time. Most of that time she wants to spend on me which is fine. And I do believe I'll be available to her for at least 6 hours a day for the next 30 (maybe more!) years. I'm the type of person who pretty much needs an equal amount of work/school time and personal time. And I really like routine. Pretty good personality traits for a bird owner I think :senegal:

Sorry to go SO off topic.
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Re: Height Dominance - Myth or Reality?

Postby HyperD » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:50 am

I have read this in many places and assumed it to be true, but after watching my sister's parrot and mine, I would say they prefer height more because they feel safe there.

When scared or when tired, my senegal will fly up to her hanging perch, but most of the time she will come down when I give her my finger (with no command).
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Re: Height Dominance - Myth or Reality?

Postby Michael » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:36 am

Basically I think it has nothing to do with dominance but rather with sense of security. When a parrot is low, it is quite eager to get an opportunity to be higher. So if you pick up or recall a parrot from the floor or low place, it will happily come up to be on you. On the other hand if the parrot is higher than you, it does not want to come down because of "dominating you" but rather because it is where it wants to be and you are lower and thus less desirable in that sense. So while coming up is in itself rewarding, coming down needs some extra motivation (attention, treats, etc).

Also I think many people don't interact with their parrot and just let it be out until they need to put it away. So if the last thing that happens before being put away is always being pulled down from high places, the bird may learn to resist and it could appear as though it is trying to dominate.
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Re: Height Dominance - Myth or Reality?

Postby localpigeon » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:56 pm

It's myth. It's just people trying to find simple explanations for complex parrot psychology. There is no evidence of heigh dominance among parrots in the wild. In fact there is no evidence of dominance full stop among parrots in the wild.

there's a good article about this here: http://www.naturalencounters.com/pressRoom.html

it's entitled "Height Dominance"
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