How to properly clip wings?

[bmsweb]

. .they felt this was a decision best made between a vet and an owner based on the total picture. Which I personally think is the right answer.

The "Total Picture" I think hits the nail on the head! 100% with you on this and I don't think the issue is in any way black and white.

[Michael]

Also on forums, the first thing people advise is clipping the bird. Pro-flight owners are definately in the minority.

Gee, are any of those forums English-speaking? Because it seems wherever *I* go I'm being constantly lobbied to have my bird fully flighted! I got so wound up I wrote the AAV to see if they had a policy statement on clipping. They wrote back and said they'd had a meeting to discuss my question (!!) and that they felt this was a decision best made between a vet and an owner based on the total picture. Which I personally think is the right answer.

They are definitely the minority. They may be the more vocal minority with a strong opinion about it but definitely far more people restrict their bird's flight (I say restrict rather than clip because some people don't clip but permanently cage or tie their unclipped bird down so it can never fly). I asked at my bird store what percent of people coming in to get their parrot's nails groomed also have the wings clipped and I was told it was close to 80-90%. I would guess maybe half of flighted parrot owners prefer not to bring their bird in to be groomed because of flight so that leaves 70-85% of unflighted parrots under my guess.

I think there is a chance that forums (especially this one) may seem to be more full of pro-flight members is because we attract the most informed parrot owners (not that our clipped members are uninformed, but I think less informed owners don't even consider whether to clip or not and just do it out of habit). From other discussions you can see that people here put a lot of thought and care into their parrots (whether they clip or not) and the reason they are on a forum is to learn how best to care for their bird. So people who give a lot of thought to parrot care are more likely to make extensive arrangements in their house so that their parrot could fly than people who never research parrot care and clip their parrot because that is what the store told them to do.

Also because the pro-flight people are a minority, they are more vocal. Clipping is still the standard and status-quo so the burden of providing information falls upon the freeflight people. This is an interesting discussion though. I still believe in freedom and think the decision ultimately falls upon the parrot owner. But the more I research flight, discuss it, and observe my own parrot, the more certain I am becoming of my opinion that parrots should not be clipped. I may be the first person on this group to acquire a never clipped parrot (larger than a budgie) so I have no idea how much of an impact that will have on taming compared to Kili who was initially clipped. I will share my findings and this will shed light on whether proper training technique or clipping plays a dominant role in early parrot taming.

If there is anyone on here with a never clipped parrot, let me know because as far as I know everyone's flighted parrot was clipped at least at the time of acquisition.

[Java]

Me personally will always clip. Sorry, but I see it as a safety issue. I have many animals, the bird is not the only one, have cats, dog, ferrets, mice and a lizard, and fearing the cats and dog most, I do not want the bird to get to where they could harm him. I also worry about things in my home such as heaters which can harm him if he were to land on it or near it. I also have young children who could inadvertantly step on him if he were to fly to the floor or to another room that I am not in. Things happen and I do not live in a perfect world where I have no other animals to worry about or kids or environmental concerns, and I would rather keep him safe.

I also do not want poop all over the place. I want his poop mostly where his cage is and occasionally he poops on me and hopefully some day that will stop too. Bird poop can cause human health issues, and I would rather contain it to his area to be cleaned up than have it whereever he may chose to fly.

We also do contain may other animals. Somebody above said that the bird is the only animal that is clipped in order to restrict movement. We put dogs on leashes, don't we, so they do not run in the street and harm themselves. We keep little critters such as mice in cages, lizard in a tank. All domesticated animals are restrained in their movment to some extent.

Nonflighted for me is the safest way to keep a bird as a pet.

[Michael]

Me personally will always clip. Sorry, but I see it as a safety issue. I have many animals, the bird is not the only one, have cats, dog, ferrets, mice and a lizard, and fearing the cats and dog most, I do not want the bird to get to where they could harm him. I also worry about things in my home such as heaters which can harm him if he were to land on it or near it. I also have young children who could inadvertantly step on him if he were to fly to the floor or to another room that I am not in. Things happen and I do not live in a perfect world where I have no other animals to worry about or kids or environmental concerns, and I would rather keep him safe.

So let me see if I get this straight... you think that if the bird could fly, it would be on the floor and get stepped on or attacked by carnivorous pets. But if it is clipped, it cannot end up on the floor or attacked by other animals?

[Java]

Me personally will always clip. Sorry, but I see it as a safety issue. I have many animals, the bird is not the only one, have cats, dog, ferrets, mice and a lizard, and fearing the cats and dog most, I do not want the bird to get to where they could harm him. I also worry about things in my home such as heaters which can harm him if he were to land on it or near it. I also have young children who could inadvertantly step on him if he were to fly to the floor or to another room that I am not in. Things happen and I do not live in a perfect world where I have no other animals to worry about or kids or environmental concerns, and I would rather keep him safe.

So let me see if I get this straight... you think that if the bird could fly, it would be on the floor and get stepped on or attacked by carnivorous pets. But if it is clipped, it cannot end up on the floor or attacked by other animals?

LOL, well when you put it that way it does sound crazy, but yes, that is my opinion. He, at least since I have him, has not attempted to leave his cage top/cage area, or to fly anywhere. If he was to fall to the floor, it would be right in front of me and I could collect him and make sure he is okay. If he could fly, he could fly off and be hurt out of my view.

The animals cannot get him on his cage, at least I don't think they can. The cats climb yes, but dog cannot that I am aware of. The bird is never out of cage unless I am here to keep animals from the top of his cage or he is on my shouders, where no animal can get to unless I allow it, and I will not allow it while the bird is there.

I have a 3 level home, with an unfinished basement where we do our laundry, and which he could fly to if he was not clipped. All this does not matter anyway because I would not go do laundry w/o putting him in his cage first cause I would worry about the cats getting him. I have multi level ceilings and some fans up and it is all so scary for me what can happen to him if he could fly.

Maybe it is in my mind, but I feel safer with his feathers clipped, and less mobile. Call me crazy. Why did the pet shop tell me i needed to buy a carrier (which I did not cause I have one already) to bring him in every 6 weeks to clip his wings/nails?

I guess I just don't see why he would need to fly indoors.

[PRD]

Also on forums, the first thing people advise is clipping the bird. Pro-flight owners are definately in the minority.

Gee, are any of those forums English-speaking? Because it seems wherever *I* go I'm being constantly lobbied to have my bird fully flighted! I got so wound up I wrote the AAV to see if they had a policy statement on clipping. They wrote back and said they'd had a meeting to discuss my question (!!) and that they felt this was a decision best made between a vet and an owner based on the total picture. Which I personally think is the right answer.

These are the 2 most visited dutch forums. Percentages i would gues be at least 75% clipped, 25% non clipped, also in Belgium. This is based on what i read on these forums, pictures i see, videos i watch etc.

The reason why i dont agree with u on this part is that the vet has completely nothing to do with your choise to buy a bird, nor another animal. Thats your decision, responsibility and total picture. The vet is a step u take after buying a bird, and not during or before that proces.
If u have to change the body of an animal to make him adjust to your environment i would consider that as not acceptable. If the animal gets sick, and u take him to the vet and he says u will have to amputate his leg, then thats the right thing to do. We do not do this to other animals. And i am not talking about cutting nails or things like this. If your dog is not sick u dont bring him to the vet amputate a leg for your convenience.
If u are really worried about the bird hurting himself during cooking, open windows etc u would buy a large cage for him and keep the parrot in his cage. Clipping doesnt prevent your parrot from flying away and find himself into trouble. It's far easier to let the parrot learn how to fly by instinct, and then learn how u can control him then playing personal butler for the rest of your life.
Another part is in Holland there are not alot of tropical bird specialists. I happen to have a tropical bird specialist in my region, first thing she advises is clipping, without even knowing anything about my situation....She has some macaws of her own who are clipped and she is a vet so she knows better, even my situation she hasnt seen. Like i said a few times already, parrotwoners day almost gave me the impression that what i am doing is wrong and dangerous for the animals. Fact is that i have to worry far less about the welbeing of my parrots when they are out of their cage.

The way u describe it, a discision made between vet and owner, it works far from that.
Not only that, will a vet advise not to clip the bird? U ever heard of a vet say to people:'no sir, your situation is good for flying so i wont clip your bird'?
What i am saying, is even when the conditions are perfect to keep a flighted bird people still will clip their birds cause they dont have to worry about cooking, the open windows/door, the bird wont chew on their furniture etc etc, they dont know how to train/keep a flighted parrot but most important of all they think it's normal.
If the total picture is 100% perfect, more then plenty of room and time to fly daily, seperate birdproof room as cage, no small childrens in the house and there are completely no reasons to clip the bird, would u consider it unacceptable if people would clip their bird despite these perfect conditions, just cause they dont have to worry about all their daily activitys?

[pchela]

Michael,

My Caique has never been clipped and my African Grey is not going to be clipped though he just took his first flight yesterday. The Caique (Linus) doesn't seem to be any harder than Pippin to keep under control. They are both a pain in the ass! Seriously though, if they don't want to do whatever we are doing they fly away. Pippin is clipped so he lands on the floor where as Linus lands where ever he wants, but they both still fly away.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

If u are really worried about the bird hurting himself during cooking, open windows etc u would buy a large cage for him and keep the parrot in his cage.

REALLY?

[miajag]

I don't really feel strongly on either side in this debate, but for christ's sake, stop comparing wing clipping to amputating a person's or a dog's legs. A) wing feathers grow back; B) most pet birds can still get around their environment just fine with clipped wings. Anti-clipping people do nothing but make themselves look ridiculous when they say stuff like that.

[Michael]

In my experience it is the clipped birds that end up on the floor or crashing and not the fully flighted ones.