How to properly clip wings?

[entrancedbymyGCC]

It is true that a clipped bird could get stuck on the floor, but the main reason clipping is "safer" is because it permits closer oversight... the bird isn't going to fly someplace unexpected and sit on the floor.

Birds from species that are ground foragers would presumably choose to explore the floor, wouldn't they?

[Michael]

Yes I do admit I did not take into consideration the ground feeding parrots because at this time I do not have one and Java specified Senegal Parrot. I don't know the answer for ground feeders. Maybe even if clipped they like to fly down to the floor? Birds that like to be on the floor is a different story. I just know that since flying, Kili is on the floor far less than when she was clipped (except when I call her to floor for training of course). I've found that flighted parrots like to spend their time higher up and closer to us. If I walk around my place, Kili is usually just behind or even ahead of me cause she can fly faster than I walk.

I do understand many of the concerns about having a flighted parrot but I think one issue is "fear of the unknown." I know I was definitely worried about having a parrot flying all over the place like crazy and can't even get it back in the cage. However, experience with a flighted parrot has proven many things otherwise than I thought would be the case when it was clipped. That is why I hope to demonstrate how easy it is to live with a flighted parrot (aside from benefits of flight) so others wouldn't worry. Sometimes I wonder if clipping is merely a false sense of security for the owner? Like thinking the parrot can't fly out a window, etc that way. Personally, I was careful not to leave doors/windows/boiling water with the clipped parrot either, so little had changed when she started to fly.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Sometimes I wonder if clipping is merely a false sense of security for the owner? Like thinking the parrot can't fly out a window, etc that way. Personally, I was careful not to leave doors/windows/boiling water with the clipped parrot either, so little had changed when she started to fly.

I agree with you that a parrot owner would be foolish to believe that just because the bird is clipped it is safe. There are plenty of accidents that can happen to a bird that is clipped. There are IMO even more accidents that can happen when a bird is flighted, and only a few whose chances are less if flighted than clipped.

I will posit for you, though, that the fact that nothing bad has happened may give you a false sense of security that flight is "safe".

In addition, it just isn't a black and white situation. A bird isn't either SAFE or NOT SAFE. It has some probability of getting stepped on or flying away regardless of its state of wing clipping -- if it is clipped the probability of getting stepped on may go up but the probability of flying away will go down and vice versa for the same bird, flighted.

It is very common for equestrians to feel safe until they have had a spill and then to have a very different sense about the risk -- it is in human nature to perceive risk based on our experience, but in very many cases statistics says that risk stays about the same whether we have experienced a bad consequence or not. Michael: hypothetically, if Kili were to fly away and get lost or suffer a flight related accident, would you change your mind about flight? Or do you accept that such a thing could happen and choose flight for its merits nonetheless?

[Michael]

Michael: hypothetically, if Kili were to fly away and get lost or suffer a flight related accident, would you change your mind about flight? Or do you accept that such a thing could happen and choose flight for its merits nonetheless?

This is an excellent question and every parrot owner should consider whether the parrot is flighted or not. I think some kind of flight related accident wouldn't change my mind about flight because I've had at least a one year good track record with flight. Actually Kili has crashed far less (barely at all) since being well flighted rather than when she was clipped and spooked. I may be a bit complacent about the risks of flight in my home but that is only because I've developed an environment and habits that ensure flighted-parrot safety. My biggest chance if anything is losing her when I let her fly at other people's houses because of uncontrolled variables. The comfort that I have at home may lead me to forget some important flight consideration when somewhere else because I don't think about them so much anymore (since it is established or habit).

I've flown Kili at home with exposed and even open windows (with closed screen though) and she has never even ventured near the windows let alone crashed into one. Honestly, I'm starting to believe the crashing into windows is a myth made by pro-clipping people because I hear them say it all the time and yet many flighted-parrot owners that I talk to never have any trouble since teaching their parrot about windows. One breeder that I considered to get a cape from refused to raise a flighted parrot claiming the window threat. Jean Pattison on the other hand told me it is just fine and she raises them around windows so they learn about them.

I have two doors leading to my apartment and a staircase between them so it is like a very difficult maze to get out that way. There have been times I left the top (but not bottom) door open and once again Kili never ventures that way cause it's just a boring hallway. So basically I think I have multiple safeways in place. First of all, I've taught the parrot through habit not to fly toward windows or out door. Second of all, I normally keep windows closed and shades closed as well as both doors closed when parrot is out. So I do feel pretty safe and it would take some miraculous series of events for the parrot to be able to get out.

The bigger risk if anything is when I take the parrot outside on a harness. The indoor freeflight I really think is 99%+ harmless but the outdoor carries several major risks. The one that is least in my control is the risk of predation. It is very small and I can reduce it further by keeping an eye out and watching the parrot keep an eye out. However, this one is the one big uncontrolled risk that I choose to take (topic for another discussion) but most of the other things are less of an issue I think. A lot of people with clipped parrots lose them to a gust of wind and since the parrot is so inexperienced with flight, retrieval is actually far more difficult. With the outdoor training I've given Kili, I am fairly confident that I would manage to retrieve her (eventually) just by recall and not by any physical means. Thus if anything, I think there is more safety from good training against loss than clipping.

I think the people that are at highest risk for loss are people who take an untrained parrot (especially not clipped) outside without consideration or who think their parrot likes them and will come back. I think the parrots with good flight capabilities, even if spooked, are much more likely to safely come back on their own. I have yet to gain personal experience on these issues but I do know from freeflying Kili in unfamiliar indoor environments, that I have been able to recover her without any difficulty. I still use extensive precautions but by having good training, that is a further safety net which a clipped parrot could not learn.

Understandably there are little or no statistics about these things and we develop most of our hunch statistics from stories we hear around. But from what I've heard around, a lot of clipped parrots get lost or injured as the result of clipping (taking outside thinking it is safe, crashing when spooked) than well trained flighted ones. I think if anything though, clipping sooner provides a false sense of security than consciously not-clipping because it forces us to think about and take the extra precautions that clipped owners can more easily sidestep (harness, windows, etc).

[Java]

If u are really worried about the bird hurting himself during cooking, open windows etc u would buy a large cage for him and keep the parrot in his cage.

REALLY?

{smacks self in head and wonders why I didn't think of that sooner}.

[PRD]

If u are really worried about the bird hurting himself during cooking, open windows etc u would buy a large cage for him and keep the parrot in his cage.

REALLY?

Let me refrase myself: U could also

I don't really feel strongly on either side in this debate, but for christ's sake, stop comparing wing clipping to amputating a person's or a dog's legs. A) wing feathers grow back; B) most pet birds can still get around their environment just fine with clipped wings. Anti-clipping people do nothing but make themselves look ridiculous when they say stuff like that.

What do you think about people, who have website or state on forums with the meaning to teach people about parrots, comparring clipping with cutting hair of people, because just like hair it will grow back? That doesnt sound ridiculous?
Even though it sounds ridiculous what i say, we do not do this to ourselves or any other animals. And with this i mean adjust an animal its proportion physically with the purpose to limit/control it's movement.
It also depend on what u mean by just fine. I didnt say they cant move around. Will he have the same confidence as he would have if he learned to fly when he was able to?

It is the whole picture of the pro clippers that i experience that sounds ridiculous:
It wasnt even my choise to clip my birds, they were clipped (1 more then the other) when i bought them. If i want a parrot i would have to find a breeder which breeds them and would have to explain to him i want a non clipped parrot, or else i will get a clipped parrot. Or i would have to buy clipped birds, and wait for the feathers to grow back. It's almost a year now since i have my parrots and i have seen 1 clipped feather being changed from all of my birds sofar.
It's not a decision based on someone's personal situation. Its a decision u make to have a non clipped bird. Sounds ridiculous to me...

I also believe it creates a false sense of security, but i also believe people underestimate the intelligence of these birds.

[Michael]

While I agree with most of your points, I disagree with the part about buying a clipped parrot. When I got my Senegal Parrot, I did not know much about parrots except several stores I visited. The online research I did and books I read talked damn little about flight either. The store employees knew little about flight or said to always clip. I did not really have the option of going to a breeder because I didn't know about that channel. If I didn't get a clipped parrot and then do more research I would have never had one. I think the key to increasing flighted parrots is knowledge. If more stores, books, experts, etc promoted flight it would be different. However, I would not criticize any bird newbie for buying a clipped parrot because I've been there and I realize there are virtually no channels for them to know otherwise. I am trying to make more videos and articles to create a knowledgebase about parrot flight but once again it is more likely existing parrot owners that would come across these videos, forum, or articles. However, the flight experience has changed me and my next (and any future parrots) must be flighted. Perhaps others can learn this as well and ensure they buy flighted next time as well. But don't belittle genuinely naive/ignorant beginners who are buying a bird for the first time and the local store that sells them is their first and only introduction to them.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I do suspect that birds don't see windows the same way we do, so perhaps that danger is overly exaggerated. They see further into the UV than we do and the glass blocks that, so I would conclude that either the colors of things through the window will appear altered or it will appear somewhat less transparent to them. A screen could in fact be an even more significant risk of collision.

I also agree that, should a bird fly away, a flighted bird not only may be easier to retrieve, but is also rather more likely to survive the experience.

I still think a flighted bird has a lot more ability to get into trouble around the house than a clipped bird. If for no other reason than it makes it far easier to keep dangers out of reach.

The bottom line for me, which I think I've mentioned before, is that I honestly believe, given the sum total set of circumstances in my home and life, that my bird will have a better quality of life and, equally important, that we will enjoy having him far more with his wings clipped rather than allowing full flight. This is because safety considerations would cause the area and times in which flight could be permitted to be severely restricted, and the result would be that the bird would spend far more time alone and more time in the cage. He'd likely be restricted to a single room. I would not be comfortable taking him on trips. Clipped, he can accompany me around the house doing chores, he can come sit on the sofa with us when we watch TV, etc. I don't feel this would be safe if he were flighted, not unless we changed our lifestyle a lot. Someday maybe my circumstances will change and I will consider allowing flight, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

I guess the thing that bothers me the most about constantly winding up debating flight here is that this is supposed to be "The Parrot Forum" not "The Flighted Parrot Forum" and I think the zeal with which flight is promoted tends to overwhelm many other interesting discussions, such as the one about body language. It also tends to promote the idea that if flight is allowed the total picture of bird care will suddenly become ideal without the owner in any way becoming more educated. IMO flight should NOT be considered unless the owner is ALREADY very knowledgeable and experienced. Otherwise it might plain be too hard for them to learn.

And for one (admittedly atypical) data point, Scooter came to us without a trim. I assume he'd been at the store so long all his flights had grown out. Although, I gather it is getting more common for breeders to allow a bird to learn flight before trimming, which is supposed to be good for their mental development, so perhaps he came to the store flighted. In the store, he was never allowed further out of his cage than into the enclosed cage access area, a space maybe 3x6x8 feet.

[miajag]

I guess the thing that bothers me the most about constantly winding up debating flight here is that this is supposed to be "The Parrot Forum" not "The Flighted Parrot Forum" and I think the zeal with which flight is promoted tends to overwhelm many other interesting discussions, such as the one about body language. It also tends to promote the idea that if flight is allowed the total picture of bird care will suddenly become ideal without the owner in any way becoming more educated.

Agree with this completely.

My point with the "stop comparing it to cutting off a dog's legs" comment was that there are certainly many real advantages to free flight, and flight advocates would be better off focusing on those rather than making ridiculous, false comparisons like that.

I personally choose not to clip my bird's wings (she was clipped when I got her but has since grown in about half of her wing feathers) because keeping her flighted is suitable and desirable for me. This is not the case for many people, though, and I definitely think clipping is reasonable for a lot of parrot owners, given their situations. I wouldn't go so far as to say flight should NOT be allowed unless the owner is very experienced, but I do agree that clipping can, and does, make a bird much more manageable for a new owner. As entranced said, the sum total of the owner's circumstances should be the driving force behind the decision whether to clip. Cutting crap like "it's the same as amputating a dog's legs" out of the discussion is beneficial to both sides.

[pchela]

I would like to add that when people say it is like a person getting a haircut, what they mean is that it does not physically hurt the bird and that the feathers will grow back eventually, just like human hair. How is that ridiculous?

If people would be willing to be open minded and see both sides of this argument, they'd see that there is a middle ground here.