How to properly clip wings?

[HyperD]

Making comparisons are never really going to work... Clipping will obviously remove flight whereas cutting human hair has no effect whatsoever.

I don't think labelling clipping as cruel is not right. Yes it removes mobility but in some cases that is for the better (i.e. as metioned when there are too many hazards). But then why buy a bird if those hazards exist? Why not get a pet that doesn't already have wings?

What might be bad is if the bird is used to flight and then you clip.
I would think the bird would miss flying, but whether it is temporary or not I don't know. How many flights will the bird try before it gives up?
Isn't there more danger if the bird thinks it can get somewhere but halfway realises that it won't make it?
Would the bird get used to walking and forget that flight was previously possible?

[miajag]

The other point, Michael, is that someone came to this forum and started this thread looking for advice on how to properly clip a bird's wings without injuring the bird. Your response was "don't clip the bird's wings," whereas an actual reasonable, helpful response would have been "Well, I personally don't clip my bird's wings for reasons X, Y and Z, but if you do decide to clip here's a video/website that demonstrates the proper technique." I mean, it's your forum, you can do whatever you want, but that's just my honest opinion and how I would've handled it.

[Michael]

The other point, Michael, is that someone came to this forum and started this thread looking for advice on how to properly clip a bird's wings without injuring the bird. Your response was "don't clip the bird's wings," whereas an actual reasonable, helpful response would have been "Well, I personally don't clip my bird's wings for reasons X, Y and Z, but if you do decide to clip here's a video/website that demonstrates the proper technique." I mean, it's your forum, you can do whatever you want, but that's just my honest opinion and how I would've handled it.

I didn't blow the topic out of proportion though. People were offering opinions about how to clip and since the topic was "how to properly clip wings" I just stated that I think the most proper way is by not doing them. I'd be contradicting myself by saying anything otherwise. I didn't expand on it and others didn't chime in until I was asked repeatedly to explain myself.

Honestly though, the minimum amount of knowledge to keep a flighted bird isn't really all that much. In a few hours of reading, you can find out all the major flight hazards (fans, windows, etc) and deal with those first. Then start letting the bird fly and you will discover what other things will be issues or not. For instance, Kili has never once landed on my desk (why? probably cause I never use it at home so it's uninteresting or even intimidating to her). Kili doesn't land on window shades or cupboards. She can but she doesn't want to. So I realized I didn't have to do anything about these since she has been flighted because they didn't become an issue. For others they might. So I think the minimum amount of prerequisite knowledge for absolute safety is necessary but the rest can be learned as you go along. As for training, although it is theoretically possible to keep an indoor freeflighted parrot without any training at all, I would recommend a minimum of complete target practice. If you can target the bird on foot to go pretty much anywhere and the bird can then fly, you should be able to target it to you and develop that into a recall in no time. The amount of time it takes to target train a parrot and prep your house for the minimum requirements of a flighted parrot all takes under one week if you have enough motivation to do it.

I think an issue people are having here in the "cutting hair" vs. "breaking legs" debate is that some people are talking about the physical properties of feathers while others are talking about the concept and application toward mobility. I agree with both but just want to point out that they are talking about completely different things. When people talk about them being able to grow back and cutting like hair, they mean that it doesn't hurt the bird and it's not like breaking a bone. The people who talk about it compared to breaking legs aren't talking about the physical damage but rather the comparison on the impact of mobility and probably psychology. We can only guess but I think the breaking legs concept is most closely correlated to how we would feel impacted by this (and once again not physically, not talking about regrowing, etc).

I do realize that I end up infusing flight into many topics but it's only because I honestly think it applies to so many things. It's a bird. I think flight and parrot are practically synonymous so to say "flighted parrot forum" would be redundant. All wild parrots are flighted. This is why if anything, clipping is out of the norm or would merit a "separate" forum. I know cage, pellets, etc are all unnatural and are practically a necessity for cohabiting with us. However, I am trying to show people that clipping often is not a requirement to throw in and can be safely enjoyed. I try to show people how flight is one of the most enjoyable parts of parrot ownership as well. It's one of the things you get when you have a parrot that most/none of your other pets could do. Isn't that pretty fricken cool? I mean the 3 most prevalent features of parrots compared to other pets is obviously their talking ability, intelligence, and flight. Most people only care about plumage and/or talking. Some go a bit beyond and enjoy the intelligence whether it is doing tricks or watching them do things in context. Finally there's flight and that is one of the most unique things to parrots! You and I can talk but only the parrots can biologically fly!

It amazes me that people want to take that away. I think a lot of it is ignorance or fear of the unknown and I was definitely in the same ballpark. I didn't know what I was getting myself into when I got a parrot or when I started working with flight. And this is largely because there is so little information out there. I try to make lots of videos and discussions about flight to show people how much fun it is and break the typical myths about it.

So while there is a separate area specifically for flight-specific questions, I don't think it is possible to talk about other aspects without flight coming up. Like the body language topic. Someone with an always clipped parrot probably doesn't know what impact flight has on body language so I tried to bring up my experience. I really do think flight makes it easier to read the parrot and results in less biting. I watch visitors and newbies handling my parrot with the most minimal knowledge of parrot handling. When they shake their hand or make a sudden move and the parrot flies off, they learn not to do that. If she were clipped she'd bite in response to that instead and it would send them running. While it has its own challenges, I think flight made many things easier and definitely a heck of a lot more fun.

PS It takes two to have a debate. I think a lot of people on the other side are helping fuel it as well.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

PS It takes two to have a debate. I think a lot of people on the other side are helping fuel it as well.

I think that's me.

It *is* your forum, shall I cease and desist?

[bmsweb]

Your response was "don't clip the bird's wings," whereas an actual reasonable, helpful response would have been "Well, I personally don't clip my bird's wings for reasons X, Y and Z, but if you do decide to clip here's a video/website that demonstrates the proper technique." I mean, it's your forum, you can do whatever you want, but that's just my honest opinion and how I would've handled it.

I understand exactly where you are coming from and agree with you 100%. I posted a comment on his RC Helicpoter on Youtube and his response ended with not clipping wings! I honestly believe this is only due to his passion about birds and flight. Was his comment to me on youtube approriate . . I don't think so, but he his young and passonate.

What people need to understand is its Michaels opinion based purely on his life experiences and that's it. It in no way makes him or his opinions correct in every situation.

Having a breeding pair of Conures I've realized there is a lot more to parrots than just Michael's "3 most prevalent features of parrots compared to other pets is obviously their talking ability, intelligence, and flight".

[Michael]

PS It takes two to have a debate. I think a lot of people on the other side are helping fuel it as well.

I think that's me.

It *is* your forum, shall I cease and desist?

First off, I like this discussion and I see no reason to end it.

Second off, it would take things really really getting out of hand before I'd stop any discussion. As long as things aren't breaking the law, rules, or just terribly offensive, you don't have to have my approval or agreement to have a discussion on here. I got sick of other forums where they effectively deleted anything you said that they disagreed with (on opinion matters that is). I may give people a hard time about clipping but I will never stop anyone from giving their opinion in full and allowing everyone to discuss it.

[Chicklet]

I'd just like to chime in here with some of my personal opinions/experiences.

My budgie, Finn, was never clipped, I bought him as a baby and trained/bonded with him as a completely parent-raised flighted bird. He's just as tame as any clipped budgie I've handled but the thing I've noticed about him is he loves flying but he has hit a window, once, when my room mate left the blinds open (I have blinds that allow light in but leave the window as an obviously blocked space). Finn hit it twice before i could close it. I'd rather modify my room to let him fly that restrict his flight.

My sun conure was horribly clipped when I got him, and after a year his feathers have finally grown out and he is loving flight. He is still the same lovable bird except now he can fly to me whenever he wants. He stirs up a bit of trouble with the other birds but its not hard to teach him whats acceptable to land on.

The one thing I have to say for clipping is that with my senegal, for now, it's the only way. When she was flighted she flew into walls and windows. She couldn't land well or turn well, she was in general a horrible flyer. I talked to my avian vet and she thinks it was because she never fledged as a baby. I'll never know as she was a rescue but after we have developed a stronger bond, I'll attempt to teach her to fly better but it may never be safe for her.

I do have cats right now which in my opinion it is safer for a bird to be flighted and when I move to my own place, hopefully the only other pets I'll have are reptiles. But as much as I love cats, I don't want to take the risk.

Basically, its all about the individual bird and the owner's situation.

[PRD]

First of all, i am not against clipping a bird. I stated earlier if your bird is blind i can imagine u would clip the bird for it's own safety. Another example is where i can imagine someone doing it is

The one thing I have to say for clipping is that with my senegal, for now, it's the only way. When she was flighted she flew into walls and windows. She couldn't land well or turn well, she was in general a horrible flyer. I talked to my avian vet and she thinks it was because she never fledged as a baby. I'll never know as she was a rescue but after we have developed a stronger bond, I'll attempt to teach her to fly better but it may never be safe for her.

If i look at a given animal under a given situation in captivity there are several things i think are important wheter i would consider it acceptable or not. So basically what i form my opinion on.
1. The action itself: could be cutting off the leg of a dog, a feather of a bird, a tail of an iguana for example.
2. The purpose: the purpose could be for the owner(economical, easier to tame) or for the animal(health, wellbeing)
3. The result of the action: could be physical pain, restriction in movement in several degrees, death, or anything.
Another factor is geographical/cultural: some cultures will see bullfighting not as unacceptable, others not.
An action that would involve cutting which doesnt have any result for the animal, could still be perceived as unacceptable. I would consider it unacceptable for instance if u would cut off the hair of a rhino(its horn) or other horned animals for your purposes, even though it will grow back, the animal can still move unrestricted and it doesnt hurt the animal. What if the purposes is money? Is it acceptable for the owner to do this to the animal for his economical reasons? I dont think do. I do think its acceptable to do this out of safetyreasons, for instance if he would becom a danger to other rhino's. Even though rhinos are not pet and wild animals, it's acceptable in my opinion to do this for safetyreasons but it's unacceptable to do it for economical reasons. And im not talking about companys/farms who breeds animals for these purposes or for consumption or both, thats a whole other discussion.
An animal in captivity has financial consequentes, regarding health, housing, nutritioun etc, we all agree. So based on that i see the financial consequentes a flighted bird has regarding the environment as mandatory and i see clipping a bit like taking a short cut around this responsibility.

I would like to add that when people say it is like a person getting a haircut, what they mean is that it does not physically hurt the bird and that the feathers will grow back eventually, just like human hair. How is that ridiculous?

Well, because a wing is a limb, and thats something fundamentaly different then hair. Not only that, hair doesnt mean the difference between life and death. Therefore it sounds ridiculous to me to compare cutting of a limb a bird with cutting hair of a person. The closest comparrison i can make to clipping a bird is cutting a limb of another animal is such a way the animal will loose its independantcy and certainly not cutting human hair. Cutting hair of a human u can compare to cutting hair/manes of an animal, or even cutting a rhinos horn, the similarities between this comparrison are greater then between clipping a bird and cutting human hair.

Though i grew up and have been many times in the same regions where conures/parrots live and have admired them all my life, i didnt have much knowledge of keeping a flight parrot in my house. I also had to make 1 major adjustments to my house: separate my open kitchen from the livingroom for safetyreasons. I also didnt have any knowledge of how things work regarding clipping, if i had done extensive research on that part and know what i know now i definately would buy a full flighted bird. I also have the same experience as Michael states. I have and still experience it from the beginning not only as something very fun but also very easy. You learn(and still learning) along the way, and the bird also teaches u. I also believe that teaching people about this is stuff is important so people can learn that it's not only difficult but in my opinion more fun.

If people would be willing to be open minded

About the debate and the wounding up itself: I also debate with other people about this issue on dutch forums, and i usually give my opinion on statements made by people. If someone asks how to properly cut a bird i cant answer on that so i wont. But for sure in Holland, as the minority the first reaction u give on a statment in a given topic, thats the point where the discussion and the winding up starts. But if someone if scared of a flapping bird, and desides to clip the bird, I find that unacceptable and no excuse to adapt your pet in such a way because of your fear. Then you shoudlnt have bought the bird in the first place. I would also say this to his/her face.

I still think a flighted bird has a lot more ability to get into trouble around the house than a clipped bird. If for no other reason than it makes it far easier to keep dangers out of reach.

I think it's all about control. There are dangers in my house for my birds also, i have powerlines running for instance, and there are places i dont want them to come. As far for the powerlines, they dont run on the wall and my birds dont come on the ground. They will try to go to places they are not aloowed to go, but by offering them alternatives and teach them not to fly there they will learn they are not allowed to fly there

The bottom line for me, which I think I've mentioned before, is that I honestly believe, given the sum total set of circumstances in my home and life, that my bird will have a better quality of life and, equally important, that we will enjoy having him far more with his wings clipped rather than allowing full flight. This is because safety considerations would cause the area and times in which flight could be permitted to be severely restricted, and the result would be that the bird would spend far more time alone and more time in the cage. He'd likely be restricted to a single room. I would not be comfortable taking him on trips. Clipped, he can accompany me around the house doing chores, he can come sit on the sofa with us when we watch TV, etc. I don't feel this would be safe if he were flighted, not unless we changed our lifestyle a lot. Someday maybe my circumstances will change and I will consider allowing flight, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

.
I believe what u are saying about the situation, and that u can offer your bird a better quality life under the same situation then when not clipped. Given another chance, with the knowledge i have now, i would definately buy a non clipped parrot. Given another chance, with the knowledge there is available and u might have now about flighted birds, would u still buy a clipped bird? Even though u know that, given the right situation and changed lifestyle, u could give him and u a better life?

[lzver]

The one thing I have to say for clipping is that with my senegal, for now, it's the only way. When she was flighted she flew into walls and windows. She couldn't land well or turn well, she was in general a horrible flyer. I talked to my avian vet and she thinks it was because she never fledged as a baby. I'll never know as she was a rescue but after we have developed a stronger bond, I'll attempt to teach her to fly better but it may never be safe for her.

Chicklet, I have the exact same situation with my Senegal. He had a bad clip as a baby before we got him and he never learned how to fly properly as a baby. To this day he is also a horrible flyer.

Having said that, both my birds are fully flighted at the moment. Jessie has gotten used to me transporting him around the house - he loves riding on my shoulder and I'm happy because I'm not worried that he's going to get hurt.

I clip their wings once a year before our trailer opens. I do it on the off chance they get out at the trailer and hopefully it makes them easier to get back. In 4 years though we've never had a problem - I'm very diligent when we're at the trailer - I lock the front door if I have one of the birds out with me - gives me a chance to get them safely back in their cages before someone opens the door.

It is a very personal decision. I provide my opinion and reasons why I clip my birds for informational purposes. I will always respect others opinions and would never push my own opinions on others. I agree with Michael, and if that's how people were on this board, I would have been gone a long time ago.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

2. The purpose: the purpose could be for the owner(economical, easier to tame) or for the animal(health, wellbeing)

What if one of the goals is to improve the relationship between the owner and the bird? To allow for more interaction, for example. I think the needs of the owner in an owner-pet relationship also matter.

How do you feel about spaying and neutering of cats and dogs and gelding of horses? These have significant consequences for the animal itself and spaying is essentially major surgery, but the benefit to the overall population of cats and dogs is measurable, plus it does make life easier for owners. Entire male horses require rather special living situations and handling, far more geldings have good homes than would be possible if they were stallions.

So based on that i see the financial consequentes a flighted bird has regarding the environment as mandatory and i see clipping a bit like taking a short cut around this responsibility.

It's not just the money, it is the impact to other people and animals which may share the same house. Not to mention concerns like resale value, guests and so on. I feel that my pets are important and that they deserve to be treated well and with consideration for their needs, but I don't feel that their needs outweigh my own or my husband's. Nor that the bird's needs trump the cats or vice versa. Cruelty is one thing, insisting that one must completely rebuild one's home around one companion animal is IMO quite extreme. But then, to put it right out there, I am no fan of animal rights although I am a strong supporter of animal welfare.

Well, because a wing is a limb, and thats something fundamentaly different then hair. Not only that, hair doesnt mean the difference between life and death. Therefore it sounds ridiculous to me to compare cutting of a limb a bird with cutting hair of a person.

Well you aren't actually cutting the limb itself, the bone structure is unaffected, the process is painless and the feathers grow back. If you like, consider it equivalent to putting a cast or splint or hobble on a limb, only more comfortable than that. There is no permanent mutilation here, no surgical risk, a haircut is a far closer analogy than an amputation.

I also believe that teaching people about this is stuff is important so people can learn that it's not only difficult but in my opinion more fun.

Why don't you expand on that? I'd find that far more likely to be persuasive than severe words and harsh analogies.

Given another chance, with the knowledge there is available and u might have now about flighted birds, would u still buy a clipped bird? Even though u know that, given the right situation and changed lifestyle, u could give him and u a better life?

We clipped him, he came from the store with his flights grown in. I have no idea if he learned flight before his initial trim, I assume he came clipped from the breeder. Even with all the propaganda to which I have been exposed, I will likely choose to maintain that trim unless circumstances change. I'm not going to remodel the house, re-home the cats and give up my jewelry business just to allow Scooter to fly a few minutes a day. The benefits to the household overall do not in my mind outweigh the costs, and I'm including his needs in that equation. If that seems selfish, so be it. But as far as I can tell, the bird is happy. I worry about it, and I do my best to try to honestly assess his quality of life, but it is not the ONLY consideration I weigh.

Is it really such a radical notion that the needs of the household as a whole should be taken into account? Do most people here really believe that only people who are willing to completely remodel their lives in dedication to birds should have them as pets?