Kili Showering From Water Bottle

[issy]

That's so sweet =D

I will probably be getting one for Sheldon, because he jumps in his water bowl if he wants to shower.

[colorado4bjh]

I can't believe no one addressed the real concern over the use of water bottles here. I have volunteered and spoken with top avian experts over here in Denver, CO at the Gabriel Foundation (a nationally known avian rescue organization). They have expressed how bad the use of water bottles are. They have encountered owners who have lost their parrots because they didn't notice their parrot clogging up the spout with food or some other item due to playing with it. Real health issues can arise in the same day if the parrot cannot get water.

They also stated it was truly impossible to really be sure that it is clean due to the inside of the spout being inaccessible. Mineral build up can happen depending on hard the water is in any given region, and then bacteria can grow, etc. They stated that Poicephalus owners just need to be diligent in changing out the water on a regular basis. I personally keep the water as far from the food as possible and find that it doesn't get contaminated with food very often. The water gets changed 2 times a day at most.

[Michael]

Nope, not a concern really. I am much more worried about that when I'm away and someone is watching my bird but if the bottle failed while I'm at work, it wouldn't be an issue. Besides the fact that I serve some watery foods, I've noticed that she pretty much only drinks 1-2 times per day at meal times. She never sticks food in there. She was brought up on a solid pellet diet from the start so she doesn't even try to wet her pellets. She just eats them all up and then drinks a lot of water to wet them down in her crop.

As for cleaning the bottle, I change the water daily and I use soap even in the spout to clean it out. Then from time to time I use vinegar in it or boil the bottle/spout. While I had a plastic bottle that I use for away from home travel with the bird fail, the Lixit glass bottle I use has an absolutely perfect track record. I would say a water dish is a far greater health hazard than the bottles.

The thing that has harmed or killed parrots as the result of water bottles really had nothing to do with the water bottle but rather with owner negligence. Owners who've left their parrots alone long enough that the absence of drinking water could hurt them are at fault. Even if a water dish were used, it could have been knocked over or something else happened that made it unusable. If owners leave their parrot long enough that absence of water could be dangerous, that is the issue rather than the means by which they get their water.

I think a properly used water bottle is far safer than a properly used water dish because that water can get contaminated far more easily.

[colorado4bjh]

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I am, of course, entitled to believe the opinion of trained experts.

Yes, serving watery foods can help but do you serve them to her all day? Most bird owners that I know of do not. This might serve well for you and that's great, however, we all have different styles. However, you then stated "eats them (pellets) all up and then drinks a lot of water to wet them down in her crop". If you are diligent during the course of the day then that is good for you and Kili but it would be remiss to think that this can and does work for all bird owners who may not be so diligent. So yes, we can discuss about neglect but we can also discuss the best tools for owners not as diligent as some but none the less do a good job taking care of their birds overall. However, I don't think you can classify it as negligence if a bird owner isn't checking their water bottle 4-5 hours. Yes, that is just long enough to cause a bird to have distress.

I seriously doubt everyone is going to check the water bottle consistently every few hours and ensure that is not clogged. I was told & reassured that using a stainless steel bowl and changing the water is a much safer risk than the bird not getting water at all. Especially if you keep more than one water dish around at a time. I KNOW I can truly and honestly get a stainless steel cup clean and even run it through the dishwasher. I have seen the Lixit glass water bottles and can see why these veterinarians really do question them despite what you have said.

You obviously can raise and care for Kili in the manner you feel best. However, I don't think it is wise to dismiss information that can give other bird owners the ability to make an informed decision for the care of their little ones. Isn't this what this forum is all about? I, for one, am going to go by the advice of trained veterinary experts who just want to save birds from this kind of fate & who have seen such tragedies. They really are trying to inform bird owners how to avoid them.

For me, it just isn't worth the risk. My parrots are too important and precious to me to be playing water bottle roulette.

[Michael]

Once I cleaned and prepared the bottle for Kili in the morning but forgot to mount it. I didn't give her water until I got home. She took a drink but wasn't desperate or upset. I've also traveled with her got multiple days at a time and I don't leave water in the carrier. I pour water into a smaller travel bottle and offer it to her a few times a day or after meals. Once again, an example of how the parrot can easily go 6-10 hours without water.

What makes them different from us is their anatomy. They can fill their crop with food and water and then digest it as they need it throughout the day. I've never seen Kili drink mid-day. On;y in the morning and in the evening after a meal. I cannot speak for other species so this may not hold true across the board. But for Senegal Parrots and Budgerigars, I can say with reasonable confidence that if the owner sees the parrot at least in the morning and evening, that even if the bottle failed, the bird is safe.

I'm not feeding watery foods all day long but once consumed, they can keep the bird hydrated for most of the day from their crop. I noticed that Kili barely or doesn't at all drink water after having a fresh veggie meal. Of course seeds/pellets do require more water.

I don't care about what vets say on the matter. They have nothing to do with it. This is a matter for the engineers (or whatever you call people that design the bottles) and the parrot owners. You can say that these bottles are to be used with owner supervision only but then again this holds true for practically anything. There are plenty of owners who complained that their parrot knocks their food cups out of their holders. What's to say this doesn't happen to water dish? This is not a health issue but rather a design/supervision issue. If the owner doesn't check the water twice a day, only then could it become a hydration issue that could possibly involve a vet.

My main point about why bottles are better in the long run was because the water in a dish can get contaminated quite easily. I've seen Kili poop in her food bowl (luckily having eaten all the food) quite often. So if that was meant for water, there would be poop in the water at least once a week. If the water bottle fails for 6 hours, she'll just get her water when I get back. However, if it's a water dish and the parrot poops in it or throws something in, it will have the opportunity to drink bad water the whole time. I think the parrot is more likely to get sick from drinking from an open water source than from the short dehydration it may experience as the result of a clogged water bottle.

I fill the water bottle to the top daily so I can easily tell at a glance how much has been drunk.

PS If there is a strong criticism of water bottles is the transition to them has the potential of being stressful. If the parrot doesn't drink a while until it starts to drink from there, it could be problematic. Luckily I transitioned my parrot when she was young and my next one will learn it even earlier straight from the breeder. So even this is solvable and the transition presents life term benefits.

[colorado4bjh]

Well once again, this does come down to choice of the owner and what risks they are willing to deal with. To also know how good they are at overseeing their birds care. It really doesn't come down to the engineers but comes down to the owners, how well they know their birds and what they are willing to risk. I won't repeat my self too often on this subject but once again not everyone may be as diligent as you when it comes to overseeing that a water bottle isn't clogged up. I am using this forum to help warn birds owners about the dangers of water bottles instead playing into the thinking that you can hang it and foget it. However, it is obvious you do a good job overall with her but I can confidently say that many owners aren't so adept. So an owner has to ask themselves if they can honestly answer 'YES' that they will check that bottle EVERY time and avoid risk of illness or even death or can they honestly say that they know themselves well enough to know that mistakes can and do happen. Or make the choice to take a chance that the water dish can potentially get dirty due to food, etc. but at least have some peace of mind that water is at least accessible. I know, and the vets you quickly dismiss know, that most parrots aren't prone to dumping their water dishes and if they are, there are tried and proven ways (yes, by engineers or handy creative people) to prevent dishes being over turned. Ever hear of a Quick Lock Crock?

You mention in your post, "Once I cleaned and prepared the bottle for Kili in the morning but forgot to mount it. I didn't give her water until I got home. She took a drink but wasn't desperate or upset". Well, lets address this statement. First off, birds don't typically show signs if they are not doing well as a way to protect themselves instinctively. (I know you know this) So who is to say this isn't having an impact on her when she doesn't have access to water over this amount of time. I am very well aware of bird anatomy and the use of the crop however there are studies (told to me by my own personal avian vet) that this does take a toll on a birds body and these studies conclude that birds should have access to water AT ALL TIMES. Who is to know what type of birds that were studied but I will air on the side of caution on this one. But hey, as you stated, "I don't care about what vets say on the matter."

My main point here is that one size does not fit all and it is remiss to dismiss the experts of avian vets and avian shelter rescue personnel who know MUCH MORE than you or I combined. So I guess it reflects on how quick you are to dismiss them. That is your choice in the matter and I will leave it at that but I definitely will abide by their very sound advice and go by their past experiences with thousands and thousands of birds. I guess dismissing their advice is why they have to deal with so many crisis in the first place.

[Michael]

My point is that the debate has very little to do with bottle vs. dish. As you pointed out and I did as well it comes down to owner responsibility. It didn't matter that it was a water bottle in question on the day I prepared but forgot to mount it. If it were a water dish the result would have been exactly the same. That was an owner mistake and it only happened once. For this reason I keep it a habit not to put it down until I've filled and mounted it.

The quick locks are an engineering solution similar to stainless steel balls in the tube. The fact is that both technologies have their pros and cons. As is being illustrated by this discussion, the supervision of the owner is the key factor in keeping a parrot safe whether they use a water dish or a bottle. The water in a dish needs supervision for being changed if it is soiled. The water in a bottle needs to be supervised in case it is stuck or spilled out. So to say that water bottles require careful supervision is a faulty comparison to water dishes because they require equally careful supervision for other reasons (and many of the same ones). An irresponsible owner with a dish or bottle can equally lead to bad outcomes.

I don't trust vets to be experts on the subject of parrot ownership. They may know how to treat illnesses or broken limbs but that does not make them automatically an expert on handling/care. Some may have their own parrots and experience but that would be separate from the mere fact that they are a vet. Do we ask our doctors about advice on plumbing or what drinking cups should be made of? I don't know from where vets draw their opinion of parrot drinking habits but I can speak about my parrot directly from observation.

As I've said, I used to take her on more day trips and even multi-day trips. I do not provide water in the carrier that she lives out of because I cannot hang a bottle onto it and can't put a dish inside cause it can spill over in transit. So instead I would hold a bottle up for her to offer her drink. At first I'd do it every half hour or hour out of paranoia but most of the time she'd refuse the water. So progressively I spread the time between water offers so that when I offered it, she'd actually want it. I discovered that she pretty much just drinks water after pellet meals. If I give her a veggie meal she may drink a little or no water at all. Between meals, most offerings of water go to waste so one offering of water mid-day between meals is worth it just in case she wants it but offering it all day long proved unnecessary. So I don't particularly care what a vet told you, this is what my parrot told me. By drinking or not drinking under my direct offering of water demonstrated to me how little the hydration requirement really is. There is no water deprived stress because she doesn't take it. Even at home, I never see her drinking during the day, only after breakfast and dinner meal. Of course she is on a twice a day feeding schedule so I'm not sure what the case is for parrots that eat all day.

I do not know what the water requirements are for different species. So if you have a different species, don't go by what I say because I have no idea how much water they need. If you have a Senegal I still suggest you discover your parrot's drinking habits yourself rather than going by my observations.

The fact that I've observed how much and when my parrot drinks means that if I observed her drink in the morning I could just as well leave the bottle out of the cage as leaving it in and risk it breaking while I'm gone because I know she won't drink again until I serve her the evening meal. I leave the bottle in so that she has the choice to drink if she wants to but I know that she doesn't need to until nearly 12 hours later. The time I forgot the water bottle, she did eat pellets but didn't have water to water them down. I think it was 4-8 hours later that I discovered this and gave her the water. The reason I figure it was not a severe issue is because she calmly walked over and took a few sips no different than she would after a meal. When she is really thirsty she drinks much more vigorously.

My point is that I know my parrot's drinking habits and have considered the jammed water bottle scenario. To me it is a non-issue because I know how long she normally goes without water and I see her at least that often but usually even more. Furthermore, she has never stuck anything in the bottle and I've never had the Lixit bottle jam. I have had my plastic travel bottle jam so I am aware of the problem but the Lixit bottle has had an excellent track record so I am even less concerned. The reason I am writing extensively about this is because I think it specifically demonstrates the superior choice of using a water bottle for parrots (assuming you do it right, but if you do dish wrong it's bad too).

The fact is that water in dish is always at risk of contamination. Whether its old food, poop, or the parrot taking a bath in it, the risk of the parrot drinking dirty water is present. The bottle eliminates this issue. Yes, if the bottle isn't properly cleaned, it can become a health issue. But then again if the dish isn't properly cleaned it is the same problem. If a parrot is left alone for a period long enough that a jammed bottle could be dangerous, then leaving it with a dish for that long is likely to result in contaminated water. Therefore all the factors of time and owner supervision apply equally between bottle and dish so neither one is superior for unsupervised activity (although personally with reliable track record of bottle, I'd say bottle is safer unsupervised). However, for the 6-12 hours of unsupervised time the bottle might jam once in many years and result in a single day where the parrot could be waiting for water until the owner comes home. The dish will result in the parrot drinking soiled water for every day of its life. This is where I think the bottle/dish differ and where the bottle proves superior.

All of the bad owner or unsupervised issues with the bottle apply in similar ways to dish. The only thing that we can legitimately compare between dish and bottle is their implication on the cleanliness of the water and for this reason I think the bottle is the clear winner. If poor ownership is brought up, then it is dangerous regardless of the device water is served from. All of the other faults of bottles (knocked off, chewed, cracked, hard to clean, jam, etc) are solved with the well engineered glass lixit bottle (I've tried many kinds previously and think this is the best). The problem of the parrot showering from the bottle is solved by having a bigger bottle with more water and by offering showers regularly enough that it wouldn't seek its own (but more difficult) means. The problems of ownership are hopefully solved with research and experience. Instead of telling people not to use bottles because you fear they will be irresponsible, I think it's more productive to encourage them to use bottles properly so the parrots could benefit with cleaner water. If we are to have this debate about bottle vs. dish we must compare only their merits as a device for serving water and not owner negligence because we can find negligence in either case regardless.

[colorado4bjh]

I am not going to belittle the fact because it is clear you are really aren't seeing the bigger of picture of who I am addressing. I am not addressing you but all bird owners and the decisions they have to make.

I think everyone can see by my previous statements that water bottles are more likely to be dangerous because dirty water is better than no water at all. It's just that simple. Not all people are as good, or take the time, with their birds so this response is for them.

You'll also note that I don't only mention vets but also avian rescue specialists who's job it is to maintain and care for thousands of birds every day, 24 hours a day so this is where you are wrong in dismissing their advice and expertise. They have ALOT more experience than either of us so the only thing you can have knowledge of is your own bird but not really speak to other bird owners on their own birds and habits but these folks certainly deserve the respect and advice they give. Personally, I am just a messenger of their experience and expertise but if you want to continue to belittle them and their efforts then go right ahead but I think most people can see my side of this argument and decide for themselves the best solution.

[Michael]

I'm no expert but I present my own story as an amateur bird trainer to show people how it can be. Irresponsible parrot owners are dangerous to their parrots whether its a bottle or water dish that they use. Unfortunately, the more they get away with it, the more complacent they are.

I am not addressing the issue according to what is right for most people. I am addressing it as which is the ideal solution that can realistically be implemented. I am trying to demonstrate how water bottles work for me and that if properly used do in fact provide cleaner water than water dishes. If that is the case and responsible parrot owners that check their parrots water twice daily or more can give serious consideration to making the switch to bottles. I cannot speak for what is the best solution for general irresponsible parrot owners. They shouldn't have a parrot to begin with. How am I supposed to give them subpar advice that is a work around of doing it a better way?

Probably the best way is to have a water dish with the water changed hourly or something like that. Obviously that is not realistic so the next best is a water bottle which is kind of like automatically self-changing. Next is a water dish that gets changed twice daily and then once daily. Anything beyond that is probably animal cruelty. Why are you so concerned with how devices could be misused through ignorance? In that case, a cage can be misused, a harness can be misused, even parrot toys could potentially be misused in a dangerous manner. All of these human invented devices are meant to be used on parrots in their intended manner by responsible supervision. If you concede that my method of water bottle usage works and provides clean water, then your concern should sooner be educating the public about it rather than arguing against me on this point.

I'm not dismissing vets/rescues in all regards but I think that I can make a more accurate assessment of the best manner to hydrate my parrot from my experience. It is understandable that rescues, stores, aviaries, and other facilities with a vast amount of parrots may prefer to avoid bottles because they cannot monitor them if each parrot has their own. That is a matter of lack of personal responsibility that individual parrot owners can easily provide. By glancing at Kili's bottle I can tell if she hasn't drunk at all, drank after one meal, drank after two, or took a shower in it. When you personally live with a parrot you develop this kind of experience. So while these large organizations may be "too lazy" or more accurately incapable of providing so much specific attention, I don't see why their inadequate personal attention capabilities should govern policy on individual use of water bottles for parrots at homes.

I honestly don't know if other species require water more or less frequently but I do know from experience that cockatiels, budgerigars, and senegals drink no more than 1-2 times per day. If someone knows of a parrot with much stricter water requirements, I'd be curious to know. So if my limited experience with 3 species of parrots doesn't carry over to others and there is a species that cannot survive without water more frequently than once every 6 hours or more often, I'd really like to know. It seems unlikely but if this is a case, a single water dish could be risky just the same if the parrot owner doesn't check in often enough. My solution would just be to have a spare bottle on the cage as well.

I'm really not sure what we are disagreeing on here? My point is that the bottle works great for me, I feel very safe using it, the lack of safety is solved by supervision which is equally required for water dish, and that I think other parrot owners should consider it (but check their parrot drinking requirements first). I really do not see any way in which water in a dish is a superior method to using a water bottle. As I keep stating, negligence is dangerous in either case, so I don't see how it reflects poorly on bottles rather than on the owners.

[TheNzJessie]

te laddera about 1.35 where did you get it, its awesome! i want to order one!