"Excited" vs. "Upset" -- how do you tell for sure?

[entrancedbymyGCC]

When Scooter is really startled it is clear -- he flies a short distance and poops. But sometimes, as with bringing him in the shower, I'm not sure if he's upset and worried or very excited in a good way. He can be very vocal with shrieks and whoops and constantly dancingly active. He also poops more frequently. I'd like to think he thinks it is a cool adventure, but I'm not entirely sure he's not saying "run for your life!". How do you tell the difference, aside from lots of experience with an individual?

[notscaredtodance]

I was watching one of Chet Womach's videos and he explained that low levels of stress are good for a bird to help it grow as an individual. This doesn't mean shoving it into a shower and turning the water on full blast right at it, but if a bird is terrified and able to fly away, it will. If your bird is a little nervous about it but still willing to let you put him on the shower perch, that's a good sign. Even if he is fidgety, it could be a mix of both. Nervous excitement. Like you're next to go on a rollercoaster and you're fidgeting. Kind of the same.

If the bird is clipped and is forced to rely on you for his safety, this doesn't really apply.

My bird actually does the opposite and stays very still when she's uncomfortable, so if she's got her feathers tight and isn't moving, I know she's not enjoying herself. Bird body language differs from species and even individual birds so the easiest way is in fact to be able to read your bird.

[lzver]

but if a bird is terrified and able to fly away, it will. If your bird is a little nervous about it but still willing to let you put him on the shower perch, that's a good sign.

I agree with notscaredtodance with the above quote. Whenever trying something new with Jessie, if he's scared or upset by something, he will fly away. Other times he remains very still and stays put. He'll usually calm down and after being exposed a couple more times he's a lot more relaxed.

[miajag]

When my Quaker is "upset" (as in, angry), she will pace/climb/fly around a lot with her feathers pulled tightly against her body. When she's scared she stays still and silent with feathers tight. When she's excited in a good way, she paces/climbs/flies, but her feathers are more puffed up and she is more vocal with squawks and babbling. The "puffiness" is a good way to determine her stress level.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Scooter is clipped, but he will fly to the ground or to me a short distance when startled. But the fact that is mobility is limited does make me want to be a bit more careful not to overface him. Plus I'd just like to understand his "language" a bit better.

[Michael]

Flight is one of the best forms of body language from a parrot. Not only can you watch if your parrot flies away, but also where it goes. For example, parrot flying off suddenly to its cage or high place is likely scared. Parrot slowly flying off to some place else could mean bored, etc. For the clipped parrot (except for really startled crash flights) it basically gets reduced to biting to mean everything. Angry = bite. Scared = bite. Excited = bite. Bored = bite. At least with a non-clipped parrot flying away takes on much of the meanings and biting is reduced to the few specific cases where it is truly relevant. Honestly, to me it seems that flight takes care of many biting problems that owners of clipped parrots have. This does not mean that owners of clipped parrots cannot read their parrots but let me tell you that it honestly is harder. If everyone started with a flighted parrot, they'd have to take a far gentler approach to handling the bird but by the time they could gain its trust, the bird wouldn't have to resort to biting. With the flighted parrot, the burden of improving communication is upon the human whereas the clipped parrot is forced to cope which increases biting as the only response the bird is allowed to do. Don't forget flight is greatly discouraged through punishment operant conditioning because the clip makes flight difficult or painful, so the parrot is not going to use flight as a signal unless through reflex.

Sorry to turn this into a clip/flight debate but honestly I think it is so relevant to the discussion of body language (maybe not your specific example but definitely in general as others discussed). In your example it sounds like excitement to me but you know the bird better than any of us does.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I'm pretty sure if my bird was flighted I'd still want to understand the body language and the use of sounds to communicate. Sure it would simplify some interpretation, but I would argue that it might actually encourage you to NOT learn to read your bird as well precisely because it would be more independent.

[Michael]

I'm pretty sure if my bird was flighted I'd still want to understand the body language and the use of sounds to communicate. Sure it would simplify some interpretation, but I would argue that it might actually encourage you to NOT learn to read your bird as well precisely because it would be more independent.

But you see, this exactly illustrates my point. There is some contradiction here where you say that flight would make "you" discouraged to read the bird better but at first you said that even if the bird was flighted you would want to be able to read it better. So you would still be encouraged to read the bird better if flighted. As for everyone else, you said the flighted bird is more independent. This is true. So for someone who loves their parrot and wants to be able to interact with it, does it encourage greater understanding/communication or lesser?

I would say it requires better communication and relationship because the more independent (flighted) parrot can fly off at any moment it chooses unless you are good at doing something it likes. Meanwhile the clipped parrot is pretty much forced to take whatever the owner inhibits on it whether it likes it or not. I think we pretty much agree that the clipped bird can only resort to biting as a means of communication for major discomfort with a situation. However, owners of particularly small parrots can easily choose to ignore this. You never mentioned the green cheeked parakeet biting you as communication and I can totally believe this. The parakeet is so small that you can ignore the bites and easily make it succumb to your desires. It will give up on biting as it is ineffective. I admit to using and even recommending such flooding on smaller parrots but this is by no means the best method. It WILL NOT work on a giant macaw or any flighted parrot. Parrots of this latter category do not have to take it and wont. They will either fly away or attack viciously. This demonstrates that the clip and flood method of taming is poor because it does not work universally. However, good parrot management through positive reinforcement training works for the parakeet, macaw, or flighted parrot just as well for all of them. Therefore, what I am saying is that if anything, clipping encourages the parrot owner to use subpar methods of handling their parrot that suppresses natural (and obvious) communication channels.

So first, clipping eliminates the communications that can be signaled by "flying away." The more subtle communications are all too easily missed for us (especially if they are not coupled with a more obvious one like flying away or biting, we usually call these warning signs). This leaves the parrot with biting as the primary method to demonstrate its displeasure but with a small parrot it is all too easy for the owner to ignore and eliminate even this method of communication. It seems hypocritical to me for an owner to do everything to discourage the bird from being a bird and mellowing it out and then wondering what the bird is trying to communicate. The message is in bold and quite obvious, you just have to let your parrot communicate it. Let it bite and let it fly and then avoid doing things (or manipulate the situation with positive reinforcement for example) that make it fly away or bite. The bird is trying to tell you what it wants but are you going to listen?

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I would say it requires better communication and relationship because the more independent (flighted) parrot can fly off at any moment it chooses unless you are good at doing something it likes.

I would agree that when it comes to training or other close interaction, the handler will have to be better at training, anyway, as the first lesson would have to be "don't fly off now". Without having the statistics, I don't know if you wind up with more well-trained parrots and owners, or more owners with flighted house ornaments over which they have very little influence.

Meanwhile the clipped parrot is pretty much forced to take whatever the owner inhibits on it whether it likes it or not. I think we pretty much agree that the clipped bird can only resort to biting as a means of communication for major discomfort with a situation.

(I think you meant "inflicts".) No, I don't agree. In addition to more subtle issues of vocalization and body language, the clipped bird can walk away. The clipped bird can fly a short distance to the ground. The clipped bird can squawk (I've occasionally hit a pin feather wrong). I hope you aren't trying to tell me that most people can ONLY tell their bird is unhappy because it flies away or bites them!

And even a flighted bird occasionally needs to accept behaviors it wouldn't choose... such as claw clipping, or getting medical exam, so even the owner of a flighted bird is likely to have to use physical restraint at some point. No?

You never mentioned the green cheeked parakeet biting you as communication and I can totally believe this.

Not true, when we first got him he would bite to avoid being put back in his cage. He will still do so on occasion, although we are working on training him to do so willingly even when he would rather be somewhere else. He also occasionally bites for attention. He does this when he's right next to me, but I'm paying attention to something else. This I am trying to extinct, but I don't see how flight would help very much with either of these things. In either case, I need to use training to solve the problem. I CAN force the issue, but I wouldn't find that particularly rewarding. I'm used to working with animals that are far too large to handle by main force.

Therefore, what I am saying is that if anything, clipping encourages the parrot owner to use subpar methods of handling their parrot that suppresses natural (and obvious) communication channels.

Do you realize that you are implying that the only way to get a person to interact properly with a bird is for the bird to be able to fly away? Shouldn't it be imperative for a person to try to learn the best way to work with their pet even if it can't?

The bird is trying to tell you what it wants but are you going to listen?

I am, to the best of my ability to do so.

Have you ever considered using positive reinforcement with people?

[notscaredtodance]

Yeah Michael, I'm going to agree wit GCC that biting is NOT the only way birds can express disdain, so we don't agree on that point. The bird can open it's beak in warning, can move away from the owner, vocalize, etc. Biting is not a bird's first way of saying stop, and NEITHER IS FLYING AWAY. I think both of these reactions are extreme.

As for interacting with a bird that isnt interested, clipping is the EXACT same idea as keeping a dog on a leash or holding a puppy in your lap.


This really shouldn't be a clipping ethics discussion, because a bird CAN be well adjusted, confident, and express itself without the need to fly. Sure it is a little harder, but clipping does not take away every ounce of a bird's personality and turn it into this tortured soul.

Gah. For some reason this discussion is bothering me. Even though my bird was clipped when I got her and I'm letting her wings grow out, I don't think for a second that she's missing anything but a little (LITTLE.) more freedom by not being able to fly.