"Excited" vs. "Upset" -- how do you tell for sure?

[Michael]

The issue is that we aren't birds and we do not know their "subtle body language." The only way we can learn their subtle body language is through operant conditioning similar to how we train the parrots. If slick feathers, pinning eyes, or open beak means parrot is scared, we won't realize that these are a warning sign until we have been bitten (positive punishment) or the parrot has flown away (negative punishment). So to calibrate our understanding of their subtle body language, we must first experience the maximum consequences to realize the subtle cues. It's the exact reverse of us training the parrot. We give reinforcement in exchange for behavior and teach the parrot the cue. Well reading body language is the parrot training us and the bite or fly away is the consequence that teaches us the cue (body language).

However, the clipped vs. flighted debate is extremely relevant here because a clipped parrot is limited the freedom of expression (consequence) solely to biting for all purposes. I would say for a flighted parrot, typically flight = scared but bite = antagonistic. However, for a clipped parrot bite can mean either so it is more difficult to tell what the parrot wants as the consequence is used universally. We cannot learn the subtle cues (without specific prior experience) until we have witnessed the more obvious ones.

[HyperD]

The parrot is effectively training you using negative reinforcement. If you dont do what it wants or you do something it doesnt want then it uses a bite or flight to punish you

You just have to be attentive to pick up on those subtle signs so that you can react before the fight or flight response.

[notscaredtodance]

Only someone completely unaware of a birds feelings would not be able to recognize a bird leaning away from an object it is fearful of and opening it's beak towards it to mean it's uncomfortable. I think you underestimate the body language of a bird. If I hold up a jingly cat ball and my bird pins its eyes and leans away, Im not going to push it at it's face. If my bird pins its eyes and takes a step forward, it's more interested and maybe a little nervous, but not enough to make the jingly cat ball a negative experience.

Being bitten is not the only way to recognize the body language of a bird. It's just not. Sorry.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I'm totally with NotScared here.

It is more than possible to observe an animal, read about that animal and learn to read quite subtle body language. Only with a very obtuse human will any animal invariably have to resort to getting out the big guns to get a message across. I haven't had Scooter all that long, but I can recognize all kinds of different postures and expressions. I'm not always sure I am interpreting them correctly, but I do try to figure out what they mean. Maybe some of you have grown up without ever having been exposed to pets or other animals or ever having really interacted with them and the whole concept is new? When I start working with a new type of critter my first focus is going to be on understanding how it communicates and what its behaviors mean!

Just because some people are "seriously idiotic" doesn't mean everyone should be assumed to be so!

[Michael]

From the number of questions of "how do I get my parrot to stop biting me or step up" I would beg to differ. Once again, perhaps to the few hundred people on this forum it may seem obvious (esp if they've been around parrots or other animals a long time) but to the majority of new owners it is not obvious at all. They don't learn their lesson till they get bitten. They don't realize that poking the bird, petting it in wrong places, putting finger in front of beak, etc is just asking to have it.

I'd say for the most part I still don't know how to accurately read Kili. She virtually never bites or flies away from me but she can nip or give me a mad look from time to time and I have no idea why. I mean I know some of the more obvious things and since I'm her favorite person, she is less likely to get mad or scared of me. But I think there is still too much to learn about body language and the subtlety is invisible to the untrained eye. And the way it gets trained is through operant conditioning. There's gotta be some consequence. The first time an owner sees their parrot's eyes pinning they may not notice or think "that's nice" and approach their hand so quickly they won't have time to see the beak open or attack posture and take a bite in the flash of a second. Don't forget a lot of this can happen quite quickly. Also Senegals are little bastards. They can totally look cute and cuddly one moment, inviting you to pet them, and then bite you as soon as you get close.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

From the number of questions of "how do I get my parrot to stop biting me or step up" I would beg to differ. Once again, perhaps to the few hundred people on this forum it may seem obvious (esp if they've been around parrots or other animals a long time) but to the majority of new owners it is not obvious at all.

Yes, but ceasing to clip wings is not going to convert ignorant bird owners into knowledgeable ones! I think the solution is education about birds in general, and maybe some sensitivity training, not flight. Aren't we discussing "best practices"? No matter what the best practice is, there are going to be ignorant owners who (may or may not) desire to become more educated and there are going to be plain bad owners who don't care much what is best.

[Michael]

Well I think of it as a training program for owners with flight being the highest goal, the epitome of training (well outdoor freeflight but many of us will never and should never get there).

So it may go something like this:

-Negative reinfocement to get within close distance of parrot
-Offering treats
-Clicker Conditioning
-Target Training
-Step Up Training
-Basic Tricks
-Basic Taming
-Advanced Tricks
-Advanced Taming
-Flight Recall
-Indoor Freeflight
-Advanced Flight Recall
-Outdoor Harness Training
-Outdoor Free Recall Training
-Outdoor Freeflight

This can be seen as a pyramid (reminds me of one you once made) with outdoor freeflight being the very top of the pyramid, the flight stuff just below, trick training in the middle, and basic handling/taming around the bottom. I think around 90-95% of parrot owners don't get up to or past the basic tricks/taming part. I am fully aware that the issue of stop biting and step up are most prevalent on typical parrot owners minds. Most of the folks on this forum are at or even past that stage though. As you can see, the training diagram I laid out, some things are preparation for more advanced things. Tricks may just seem cute and pointless but they teach the parrot a training regime and dependence on the human that makes the flight training more suitable. With my next parrot I actually plan to turn this pyramid practically upside down though to see if it can work in reverse though.

So yes, flight is probably not relevant to most owners but I think of it as a goal toward working for. Outdoor freeflight is probably not relevant to me and my parrots won't be able to do that but I still work toward it and treat all training as preparation for it. This is a matter of setting up goals and having high standards.

[greymatter]

Stryder , Mesi , and Merlin generally don't get really super excited or upset - they're pretty laid back.

Now Rosco DOES have a very Jekyll-Hyde personality.

The past few days he's definitely not been excited, but upset - his eyes pin really quickly, feathers on his front ruffle up, he clucks and his body bounces like he's ready to pounce. When he clucks, I know just to leave him be, as he's in full Jekyll mode (he gets like this generally with everyone but me - a bad incident a few years go has scarred him emotionally - baby steps to recovery).

I think it's just hormones and spring.

When he's excited (i.e. shower time or just hanging out with me - that's just fun in itself!), he doesn't pin his eyes, but he bounces and hoots (or goes Wheeee Wheee Wheeee).

I know my buddies well - I worked with enough birds for enough years previously that it's just second nature to feel what's going on with regards to their moods.