Parrot training gone terribly, terribly wrong

[Ursibear]

Well, if i get kicked out i got nowhere to go so... what would you have done in my place?

[cml]

Well, if i get kicked out i got nowhere to go so... what would you have done in my place?

I honestly dont know, and noone is judging you! We are all just trying our very best to help you.

What Eurycerus and Polarn's been saying is that trust is extremely important with parrots. Its basically THE most important thing in parrot training in my opinion.
I understand that you think that you are doing everything right, but from your posts, it seems you want things to happen quickly and when it doesnt, you get into a conflict with your parrot. Everytime you grab Sisu, towel him or use your leather gloves your are ruining what trust there is between you.
This is not meant to be harsh, but you need to understand that patience is the key with some parrots. It can be a world of a difference. It took us 7 months to get Leroy to the same point Stitch got to in 1 month. I hope our example can give you some insight!

Its probably better if you let him stay in his cage than grab him, because it will do two things. It will make him scared of your hands, and it may encourage his screamining, because he got out of the cage by screaming right?

I really feel with you, and I wish I could do more to help, I am so sorry that you are threatened with eviction. You really seem to want to do everything possible for Sisu, and will be a great parrot mom I am sure!

[Eurycerus]

Well, if i get kicked out i got nowhere to go so... what would you have done in my place?

I honestly dont know, and noone is judging you! We are all just trying our very best to help you.

What Eurycerus and Polarn's been saying is that trust is extremely important with parrots. Its basically THE most important thing in parrot training in my opinion.

I'm sorry I'm totally not judging you. :] I've been super stressed out about my parrot before. I couldn't sleep well for weeks when I got her because I was so worried about whether my neighbors were going to get mad, or whether she was ever going to be a sweet parrot, etc. I asked my landlord ahead of time and informed the old lady under me and gave her my cell number.

As CML says I really am just saying that trust is very important and that if you want a parrot that is cooperative then you can't do things to break that trust and expect Sisu to be friendly. It may help for those few hours but you will pay serious consequences later.

I probably would have put her in her travel cage and put her in the closet (because it's dark, not as punishment) buut that is an extremely short term solution. It does sound like your apartment complex is not the place for parrots, or your landlord was just having a bad day. You could try and talk to them again tomorrow and see if she's in a more receptive mood. I'm really sorry to hear that you are under so much stress because of Sisu.

ALSO I just briefly looked up eviction laws and I'm skeptical that they can evict you. You probably have a noise ordinance (or equivalent) that says that from 10pm to 7am things must be quiet but during the day as long as it isn't something to warrant a police investigation you are probably good. It sounds like not paying rent is the way to get evicted. Look into your rights! Don't let your landlord threaten you. http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Euro ... and-Tenant

[Ursibear]

I don't think I'm managing to describe the situation properly
Okay, so far the only things i have asked of Sisu since he came here has been: to eat treats from my hand, and to get excited when he hears the clicker.
Lately since the biting incidents I've also asked him to not be on my shoulder, since some of you recommended me to try and get rid of this habit and to be frank, i think you are right. He might bite me in the eye or whatever, and also when he is on my shoulder he doesn't want to do anything else. He sits there, whistles with me, talks with me, cuddles me, sleeps there and preens himself there. He doesn't want to play with his toys or explore or anything, and he only goes to the cage to eat.
So i started trying to get him to stay on my forearm by giving him a treat and this is when the tantrums started. He gets furious, bites everything he can reach, then he flops off and keeps hitting himself against a wall or any other object, which is why i have had to towel him back in the cage every time. I think it has been 4 times in total. Maybe 5, i can't remember.
He gets upset and turns his back on me for about 2 hours, then he's back chattering and wanting cuddles. The only thing though, is that after that he will no longer accept treats, no matter what they are, for a couple of days.
He's been fed 3 times a day, tried lots of food which so far he doesn't want to eat no matter what i try, and he gets to come out of the cage to sit on top (we didn't want to encourage the shoulder thing) or be on other high places.
In the middle of this, i got the weekend. I don't normally work weekends so i spent a lot of time with him. That is, he spent a lot of time in his cage chattering and i spent time sitting right beside him chattering too.
This might have been a mistake. Because on monday, this monday, i went back to work, and he started getting angrier then. I also had wednesdays off, as usual, and because there had been a toweling incident the day before, i wanted to make sure he was okay, so I spent some more time with him.
So today i go to work and he starts screaming at 8 in the morning. I come home at 17:00 and he's still screaming and attacking my hand when i reach in to place his food bowl in the cage. I mean attacking, biting and jumping on it and flapping the wings etc.
So i figure, maybe he's having a bad day. I start ignoring him and he continues screaming for 15 more minutes, at which point i get an angry knock in my door with a furious landlady on the other side that tells me i have 3 options, either shut the bird up, punt him out of the place, or get evicted.
I tell her that i am going to shut him up because I'm not going to give him away for someone to put him down, but the treats don't work, the blanket doesn't work, and I don't know what else to try, so i grab him. I grab him and i feel terrible because he feels betrayed, and he is now back in his cage in his one spot without moving or doing anything else but staring into the void.
So this is more or less it. I'm not sure what you mean by saying i asked too much too fast from my parrot... The shoulder thing maybe, i should just have let him sit there for the time being until the target practice was complete. I screwed up there, that's true...
But other than that, I don't think i have asked a lot. Unless trying to feed him a varied diet when he's used to bad quality seed mix counts as asking a lot (maybe it is, he seems to have a hard time with change)
I honestly can't see what am i doing wrong. If any of you veteran parrot caretakers reads anything that jumps out here, please let me know!
If you have had any particularly difficult parrot that needed a specially slow routine, how long time spans did you allow him before moving on to the next stage?
And btw Polarn, Eurycerus and Cml, I really appreciate your input I am aware that you aren't judging me, and even if you were, a bit of objectivity never hurts. I'm on this alone, my boyfriend still refuses to have direct contact with Sisu, even thought he makes him toys, feeds him and gives him water when I'm not home.

And yes, I'm already looking for a new place, because there's always going to be animals at my place the ones i already have and rescues and strays (all the bunnies started up like that) and i can't risk it. But let's face it, being in a tight budget as i am, with a sick boyfriend and 4 animals with various degrees of behavioral problems, I'm not exactly a catch of a tenant

[Polarn]

I'm terribly sorry if I ever came across as judgemental that was by no means my intention.

And there isnt always the same solution working for the same problem every time unfortunitly, however screaming is one of them tht most birds does for attention, meaning with less attention given when screaming (non) the behavior should naturally decrease over time. If at the same time attention is given in abundance for another behavior, lets say for going to a destined perch or going "meep meep" like the roadrunner, this behavior is more likely to increase in frequency in order to get attention. now learnt behavior are learnt and it takes different times to swap em out for more desired behaviors for every bird. But in most if not all cases screaming excessively is a product or someone yelling back at the parrot to shut it or walking over to pick up the bird to stop the screaming. And as long as you think the wanted response is interaction, ignoring the screaming would make it decrease, however if the outcome of screaming is the cat running off from the counter and this is what satisfyes the bird, then ignoring the behavior wont help (although not ignoring may still encourage continued screaming) but in that case you got to change the A in this case the cat being on the counter might be easier to affect,or placing the cage in a spot where it can not see the counter and therefor never knows if the cat is on it...

[marie83]

Go speak to your landlady calmly, explain this bird has been neglected, abused and is still fairly new so it is still terrified and ask her to have some patience whilst you work on taming and training. Ask her which room she uses the most then make sure you keep your bird in a room that isn't right underneath to lessen the noise but explain she will still sometimes hear her but your doing everything you can to help the situation whilst your sorting things out.
This may mean you have to move the cage about so the noise isn't so loud to your landlady but its a far better solution than grabbing the bird.

Regarding the food your bird is either sick and is only being tempted by the sunflowers (Harlie did this with me a couple of months ago) so get to the vet ASAP or your feeding too much so shes just picking out the favorite foods, in which case reduce the amount you feed or pick out all the sunflowers.

[marie83]

Btw, I think it is obvious the bird does actually want to be with you which is why he sits on your shoulder. It is his favorite place to be when out of the cage but it is no longer an option so he gets angry because he can't have his favorite thing. Now he has learned that getting angry and biting gets him some sort of reaction from you, possibly more attention than what he was getting before? so he keeps trying it and trying it.

Just wonder if when he is on your forearm if you try just tipping him off gently onto something soft and walking away into another room for a few seconds if this might help? Don't yell, speak or anything, just gently put him down. It may help him realise that your arm is a much better place to sit and get attention than being alone. This will not work if he actually wants to be left alone though so use this method only if you are 100% sure he doesn't want to be alone. Of course birds being smart he may realise that this is a way to make you leave him alone in future scenarios even if it is not what he wants at this moment so be cautious if you try this.

[Ursibear]

I'm terribly sorry if I ever came across as judgemental that was by no means my intention.

Not at all Polarn I was just frustrated yesterday.

Now he has learned that getting angry and biting gets him some sort of reaction from you

That is certainly a possibility. I'll think about this, it might very well be. He gets plenty of attention from me when I'm home, but my boyfriend has decided he doesn't want to be close to if he can avoid it. I am currently working on convincing him to at least walk over to the cage and talk to him often.
As for the landlady, I need to give her a couple of days to cool down. This suits me just fine because i need to find a diplomatic way of telling her that Sisu is staying.

Regarding the food your bird is either sick and is only being tempted by the sunflowers (Harlie did this with me a couple of months ago) so get to the vet ASAP or your feeding too much so shes just picking out the favorite foods, in which case reduce the amount you feed or pick out all the sunflowers.

I don't think he is sick... He's been to the vet 3 times since i got him everytime the checkup came back fine. He eats everything from his seed mix, although he always goes for the sunflower seeds first. But you are right, maybe I'm feeding him too much? In the morning I give him 2 teaspoons of his mix, 2 teaspoons of a random fruit and 1 teaspoon of something else, either nuts or vegetables or a new thing i'm trying to introduce (normally the pellets, but he throws them out everytime ) In the afternoon i give him the same amounts of other elements but i leave the seed mix out for a while to see if he'll eat anything else.... It doesn't happen very often anymore
Is that too much? The pellet package said I should feed him 3-4 tablespoons a day, so in terms of weight it sounds about right. (But I am terrible at this so I don't know)

I still don't have a clear idea of what sort of training, or routine if you will, do i need to use with him. I'll write several things down and post the result when i decide, and see what you all think

In the meantime, Sisu is back to normal. Flinging treats away when i give them to him, whistling (he doesn't do it loudly), chattering and asking for cuddles. I am thankful he doesn't stay mad for long. Neither do I, maybe he senses my moods better than i do...
I really hope he doesn't scream though... I have to go to work in 10 minutes

[marie83]

Well I don't know how much red bellies eat but each bird is different, if I fed my birds what it said on the pack of pellets I feed I would end up either wasting loads or have overweight birds. If sisu will allow you to weigh him daily without destroying the trust I woud do that for a few days then start slowly cutting his food down until his weight starts dropping then put the food back up to where his weight remains stable.

Have you tried food management techniques to help with his training yet? Maybe you could remove all sunflower from his main diet and use them for treats since he seems to love them? Also make sure he is hungry when you do his training so he isn't as likely to throw the treats away.
He will come round, just keep perservering.

[Grey_Moon]

Yuck...landlords.

My advice would be to soak him before you leave for work. Like take him in the shower with you and drench him (don't drown him obviously).
Most birds after a good bath quiet down, preen and take a nap. They don't want to call attention to themselves because they're wet and don't fly as well.

Food-wise? 3-4 tablespoons of food is *crazy* my grey is 340 grams and eats that much. I'd say no more than 1-2 tablespoons with a bit for treats (there's always room for treats ). Give him 1/2-1 tablespoons of whatever you want twice a day. If you're feeding pellets I'd feed the pellets first thing in the morning with *nothing* else in the bowl. Otherwise he'll pick around them and be filled up juuust enough to avoid wanting to eat the 'yucky' pellets and will hold out till dinner.
Dinner can be whatever combo of veggies/fruits you want. I'd keep nuts/dry seed as treats.
Feed him outside the cage.
Feeding like this (because I feed outside the cage) keeps the cage *a lot* cleaner too.
It'll also help you build a positive interaction with him as he wants the food, but needs to come out of the cage and step-up onto you to get there and then as a reward he gets yummy stuff.
It also counts as flock time.

Also, if he's so determined to be with you---training him to do recall flights. And work him.
Exercise is key with birds. Jacko gets a work out for 20 minutes (sometimes more/less) daily wherein we fly in 24 foot loops (12 feet there, 12 feet back) as many times as she can. I'll call her, she flies to my hand, gets a walnut crumble (as big as this O) and I toss her back to her station. Then she comes to me again. We go as long as we can (till either her/I get tired or she gets full) and by the end her feet are warm and she's breathing hard. The rest of the night she beak grinds and snoozes on my shoulder. Believe it or not she LOVES doing this---once she knows what we're up to she barely waits for me to get ready before she comes zooming towards me