Parrot training gone terribly, terribly wrong

[Grey_Moon]

Patience and consistency are the keys too.
It isn't gonna happen all *right* now and there are no magical answers. If any of the advice you've been getting isn't working into your life and your relationship with this particular bird---then quit it and go with your gut. Do what works for him, and works for you. Not what the 'parrot experts' tell you. Its like raising kids---nevermind the book, do what works for you and the child and your individual personalities, situation and how all of those things interact.

I also think that energy has a lot to do with how a parrot reacts.
Honestly, and I apologize if this is blunt.

But---he comes into this home (after being gods know where) wherein you're dependent on your bf, have a bunch of rescue animals and to be honest with you it doesn't sound like a healthy set-up.
It sounds like your boyfriend is holding a lot of the cards and you depend on him for security and so there's this tension. IF things don't go well with him you're out on your butt.

So Sisu is being fed this energy of 'bird, you're a problem and I need to fix you' because you're frustrated and scared that you'll be homeless and if only 'we could all just get along'. You're angry and that energy of him just being an unwanted problem or a project that needs fixing is being projected to him. It's negative and he's acting out.
You have this 'well I had to save him he would've been euthanized...' well what about changing that to 'well he's a welcome part of my life and my family and I love him regardless' acceptance instead of begrudging/resentful responsiblity for him.

Just see him for who he is, chill out, respect his need for flock lifestyle and have patience/consistency and it will all sort itself out in the end.
You can scream all you want about the traffic, pound your fists on the steering wheel...but it still isn't going to make it go away.

[Grey_Moon]

If you want a more concrete plan, try this:

If you have to leave for work at 8 AM---

Wake up at 6 AM, you and Sisu exercise/bathe and eat breakfast together. While your running around getting ready he's hanging out either on you or on a playstand thats near you.
When you leave put him back in his cage with a treat and a foraging toy.

When you get home, let him out and say hi.

You guys eat dinner together and he chills out till its time for everyone to go to bed.

Throw all of the 'expert advice' about no shoulders, 12-14 hours of sleep...just let Sisu show you what he needs/wants/is trying to tell you. Don't try to change him or push him towards a goal, just calm down and let him (and yourself) just be.

While he's teaching you his language, you teach him yours. Its a two way street. BUT you need to be teaching him the same grammar day in and day out (so speak to your bf---because like with children parents not on the same game plan makes for chaos and bad behaviour).
He needs to know that 100% of the time the same action (question/demand) on his part will get the same reaction (response) from you/your bf.

If he screams---walk out. Don't look at him, don't grimace, don't sigh---leave if you need to. Don't even think about how much he's driving you nuts.
BUT don't leave him there in silence. He's trying to tell you something. If its attention, then you let him know that he needs to make the proper flock call (a noise you like) so if he's yelling his brains out and then he chatters you chatter back immediately and come back in/look up at him n let him out. If he's mad because its late and you guys are still up and the radio's blaring...then its time for bed.

Every time something goes wrong, don't get frustrated and think of it as a failure--think about it as an opportunity. Its important to treat Sisu like your boyfriend---in that you take nothing for granted and realize that there will be ups/downs but you will learn to read and understand each other.

Another thing I think is reading about the natural cycles, behaviours and drives of parrots and understanding how exactly that those impact you/him in this setting. With parrots its a lot less of disciplining and a lot of adapting/managing.

[Ursibear]

Hello again everyone and thanks for your posts specially you Grey, that's a lot of info!
Today Sisu is angry at me again for going to work. I assume so because he was cuddly in the morning before i left, but now when i came back he turned his back on me everytime i approached the cage. He did however want to play mimic. So we did that for a while and then he finally came down to the perch closest to the cage door, which he normally does when he wants out, and i supposed it was because he wanted to come out and cuddle. But as soon as i opened the cage and offered my hand to step up, he flew off and landed on the floor under the kitchen table.
I've let him wander and explore so far. The apartment is bunny-proofed from before, so he won't run into anything dangerous. Maybe he wants a little boost to the cage later when he gets hungry.
Also Grey, you got this the other way around!

But---he comes into this home (after being gods know where) wherein you're dependent on your bf, have a bunch of rescue animals and to be honest with you it doesn't sound like a healthy set-up.
It sounds like your boyfriend is holding a lot of the cards and you depend on him for security and so there's this tension. IF things don't go well with him you're out on your butt.

It's actually him that's dependant on me he's been on disability due to disease for almost 3 years now, so it's me who pays the rent, groceries etc. It's just him who stays home with the animals all day.

So Sisu is being fed this energy of 'bird, you're a problem and I need to fix you' because you're frustrated and scared that you'll be homeless and if only 'we could all just get along'. You're angry and that energy of him just being an unwanted problem or a project that needs fixing is being projected to him. It's negative and he's acting out.
You have this 'well I had to save him he would've been euthanized...' well what about changing that to 'well he's a welcome part of my life and my family and I love him regardless' acceptance instead of begrudging/resentful responsiblity for him.

You are however right on that one. I get way too frustrated i suppose I have a lot of limitations right now, but I'm hoping my situation will change soon enough. It's not like i planned animal ownership, all these critters came to me a way or another, and I love them all now. I can't imagine how life would be like without them, specially the feather monster that gives me so much grief and from time to time (great times, i admit) lots of love. It turns out that like Sisu, I don't do too well with change.... But I'll get used to it eventually I'll try and ride the bad times out with a more "meh" attitude. Thanks for the insight

I'll also try the shower thing. So far he doesn't seem to like water, I've actually only seen him once diving into his water bowl out of the blue, But I guess I can just bring him into the bathroom with me. Maybe the humidity in the air will convince him that showering is healthy

And Marie,

If sisu will allow you to weigh him daily without destroying the trust I woud do that for a few days then start slowly cutting his food down until his weight starts dropping then put the food back up to where his weight remains stable.

Nope he doesn't allow me to put him onto flat surfaces for some reason, I've tried it before It's not only the balance's glass surface he is afraid of, tables, chairs etc. are a no-go as well. He's fine on the floor though, but only if he lands there himself.
About the food management, I've tried to remove the sunflower seeds from his food mix, but it has these tiny white ones too, that look a lot like other seeds he doesn't eat at all (I don't know what they are called in english) so i always end up missing a few What I've thought about is to get him a different seed mix that either has no sunflowers at all, or at least doesn't have the small white ones, at least until I can convert him to pellets. I've found a store way on the other side of town that sells Tropican and NutriBird pellets, I'll try those and get a different seed mix at the same time.
Wish me luck

[cml]

Throw all of the 'expert advice' about no shoulders, 12-14 hours of sleep...just let Sisu show you what he needs/wants/is trying to tell you.

Him being on their shoulders has resulted in her BF completely ignoring the parrot due to massive aggressiveness from Sisu. I think you are irresponsible to post what you did there, and basically tell Ursi that everything everyone else in this thread but you has said is bullshit.
Its dangerous for them to keep Sisu on the shoulder, they dont know each others body language and limits and I think one trip to the ER is enough. It could have been her boyfriends eye rather than a chunk of flesh from his neck.

My advice would be to soak him before you leave for work. Like take him in the shower with you and drench him (don't drown him obviously).
Most birds after a good bath quiet down, preen and take a nap. They don't want to call attention to themselves because they're wet and don't fly as well.

Greey moon is correct that showering usually calms them down, but if you have to towel or grab Sisu to get him to shower, this a bad idea, which is going to explode in your face.

Sorry if I come across as agitated, but Greey_moon's way of responding, without seeming to read the thread and being condescending, ticked me off.

I still maintain that its very important that your BF starts interacting with Sisu again, especially if its him thats home during the days.

EDIT:
Was a little bit in a sour mood when I wrote this, and Grey, I appologize for using a harsh tone.

I still think some of the things you said needs to be really thought about before Ursi goes ahead and do them (like showering).
I'm definetely not an 'expert', and never claimed to be either, but rather a novice with a huge interest in parrots and learning , but that doesnt stop my from seeing that the shoulder-thing is problematic. It has led to her bf shutting Sisu out, and that isnt healthy for anyone in their family .

I hope you read this edit, because generally I agree with you and dont want you to be cross with me !

[cml]

Nope he doesn't allow me to put him onto flat surfaces for some reason, I've tried it before

Here's an easy solution. This is the scale I use, and Polarn has put together a guide on how to build something very similar. I think you can find it under the toys and accessories cathegory.

[Grey_Moon]

No offense taken

HOWEVER, what I meant I stand by. IF the general recommended standard advice is not working for her, to not keep bashing her head against a wall. I did not mean to seem to say that everyone else (minus myself) was full of it.

Heck, what I suggested may not work for her either.

At a certain point its important to try and listen to the bird, instead of seeing the bird through an ideology to be corrected.
As for the shoulder thing...its really a bit of a mixed bag.
I don't think that one bad bite should label him unstable and a threat---especially when right now he seems more unstable, angry and cut off (which is the real problem) when he is cut off from the shoulder than from not. They had one bad incident, everyone freaked, and the fact that there was so much reaction and change was probably what caused such a negative reaction.
IF he routinely nipped and bit and etc then I would take him off the shoulder. But if its the only place that gets through to him and starts him on the road to opening up...why the hell would you take that from him? Trying to fit him into the standard training mode of trying to teach him manners is backfiring. We are not dealing with a handfed who is bratty.

Think about it---all these rules and restrictions and distance...
IF they don't show trust and treat him like he's a threat---instead feeding him all this tension and subconcious frustration and aggression.
WHY would HE show trust or treat them like their not a threat?
WHY wouldn't he mirror all these things right back to them?

They BOTH need to be vulnerable.

The important thing now is to put him in a position where he can open up and trust in whatever way thats necessary and to expose him to natural flock life. Not putting him through standard '30 days to a good parrot' boot camp and to fuss over him being a rescue. Personally, I wouldn't fuss over him and be constantly thinking 'omg he's a rescue parrot, he can't do this, he's not at this level...'. I'd bring him in the bathroom, watching his body language but not being worried. If he doesn't want to go directly in the shower and only wants to sit on the railing then he can do that, but I'm not treating him like he's any different or a fragile flower. I've found that to be the best approach with my rescue bird.

But like with any advice, her mileage may vary.

Ursi, I apologize! I got that bit of info mixed up, but in a way I guess it could be that the bf is frustrated about his lot in life and that could be putting negative energy into the house.

The last point is you have to think about how much chaos this little guy is exposed to. Ursi is upset, her bf is upset, their landlord is pounding on the door... its enough to make anyone snap.

I wasn't meaning to be condescending. I was offering a different view and why I thought the standard advice might not work for her.

[marie83]

To be honest I find it hard to say that ANY approach isn't working after just two weeks, its not even been that, its been about 10 days since the original post was made. Sometimes perserverance is needed much more than a change of tact, it takes time to change a lifetime (however long that life may be) of a certain behaviour.

Quite often a problem will get worse before it gets better too, especially if the bird is used to getting its own way. A kid used to getting a sweet to keep it quiet whilst the parent gets on with something will scream even louder for a while (it might be a day or it might be a month or more)before eventually realising that screaming is no longer working. Whilst I have less experience with birds than some other animals I strongly believe the same thing applies to alot of species.

As I've stated on previous posts I don't believe in domination as such but I do believe there needs to be boundries and those boundries need to be stuck by. We are not talking about an untamed bird that needs to build confidence to get over its shyness we are talking about a bird that has enough confidence to stand up for itself, that is tame enough and trusting enough to be on the shoulder in the first place.
In my opinion sisu has been there long enough to be used to the surroundings and is smart enough to realise that he can manipulate his new owners too to get what he wants and for those reasons his behaviour needs to be worked on now before it gets out of hand whilst respecting what the bird is asking of you too. Its a hard balance to find and one that only comes through experience.

Without seeing exactly how the bird and owners interact then we can only offer answers based on what we are told. For that reason alone I stand by my opinion of keeping him off of the shoulder, if there is little trust as it is, then why risk destroying it further should sisu decide to bite again. A bite on the face destroys alot more trust and promotes alot more fear than one on the hand.

Uris, please correct me if I'm wrong but I do get the feeling that you are not very confident around Sisu and he intimidates you a fair bit at the moment? I have been there with some aggresive dogs and other animals, sometimes it helps to pretend to have confidence, to pretend that you don't care if you get bitten or not and that any bites you do get don't hurt. That doesn't mean you should go in with too much confidence as that can make the animal see you as a threat but quiet confidence is good and it will bring a more natural confidence in your abilities in turn.

[Ursibear]

To be honest I find it hard to say that ANY approach isn't working after just two weeks, its not even been that, its been about 10 days since the original post was made. Sometimes perserverance is needed much more than a change of tact, it takes time to change a lifetime (however long that life may be) of a certain behaviour.

It's been 10 days since i started this post, which was the day Sisu bit a chunk of neck off my boyfriend, but i've had him for about 3 weeks now, i think

Uris, please correct me if I'm wrong but I do get the feeling that you are not very confident around Sisu and he intimidates you a fair bit at the moment? I have been there with some aggresive dogs and other animals, sometimes it helps to pretend to have confidence, to pretend that you don't care if you get bitten or not and that any bites you do get don't hurt. That doesn't mean you should go in with too much confidence as that can make the animal see you as a threat but quiet confidence is good and it will bring a more natural confidence in your abilities in turn.

Well, the situation is a bit more complicated than just having a rescued bird at home. I live in a small apartment on the basement of the house my landlady owns. (It sounds dark and humid doesn't it, but in reality it's the most awesome place i've ever lived in! 3 of all 4 walls are half wall below the earth yes, but the rest is all windows ) It's the cheapest we could find close to where i work, and the only thing we can afford.
So i am afraid of getting kicked out because of the noise, because i don't have family to return to, and i am afraid that my boyfriend might leave me if Sisu bites an eye off him next time, and i am afraid that once he goes into one of his rampages, in which he does things like hitting himself against the wall until removed, attacks anything that moves even if it is 200 times bigger in size, will result in Sisu being killed (accidentally or in purpose by my boyfriend or whoever else hapenes to get attacked)
But of the bird himself, I'm not afraid. I've had animals all my life and i have been bitten, stung and kicked by pretty much any animal you can find in the european continent. But it's still unpleasant let me tell you... I work with my hands in soil all day and two of my fingers are lacking chunks and they get regularly infected no matter what i do to prevent it so...
Yes, got to avoid a situation like that in the future, but i don't know if forbidding him to climb on my shoulder is going to help at all. He doesn't attack me anymore, he hasn't done it for a couple of weeks. My "battle wounds" are the result of removing him when he was attacking someone else (boyfriend or bunny) so in theory, as long as i keep him on my shoulder and not allow him to go to anyone else's, it should be fine.
I don't think i have a choice, I got to keep him quiet because I can't afford to move out of here to a more expensive place. I've been thinking and maybe what we can do is to train him to not attack anything that comes near to my shoulder (he always sits in the side that's closest to my boyfriend) and treat him everytime he is able to stretch his hand toward him without being attacked.
I've talked to him and he says he doesn't mind to get bit in the hands, but he still won't agree to any other contact with Sisu.

[marie83]

I totally get it about the noise, its part of the reason I daren't add any more to my flock because we live in a flat too. If we get any complaints we are out straight away so even though mine are really quiet for birds I still worry.
I think all you can do is keep him busy with foraging toys, lots of things to destroy, bathing him right before you leave - everything grey moon said. Definitely consider moving the cage or having a second cage in a room where the landlady above you wont hear him so much if possible, at least until she cools off a bit and you get chance to appeal to her better nature.
I'm sure you will work something out to help with the noise issue

[cml]

How are things going now, nine days later?