Biting to get what she wants, please help!

[Eurycerus]

Hi all,
I hinted at this in a previous post but I need some advice. So I do daily training and fun interactions with Nika (trick training, patting, and body desensitization). She and I have been having fun and progressing quite well! She can fly but doesn't know it. The few times she's done it she has done surprisingly well. As I stated in the previous post, I need to make training stands but that'll be in three weeks. I bring her into the shower area and whistle with her, but I don't actually let her on my shoulder or on me very often if ever. She generally didn't like it much. It was stressful for both of us. She's a busy body and twice she did displaced fear bites on my face. Ouch. Not a fan. (on this note i actually would love to have her hang out with me and on me but it sort of seemed like a bad idea, so if you think i should try that again let me know)

Here's the issue. She is definitely hand tame, BUUT she has been extremely nippy, degenerating into nearly full on bites. I am actually quite afraid of her full on bites, and haven't experienced that type since the second day I had her but I saw the damage she inflicted on my boyfriend and it brought bad memories. She bites/nips to get her way. I am fully aware but I just can't hold still for longer than about five or ten seconds. In addition she gets more persistent. Her bite gets stronger and stronger as she doesn't get her way. (btw she bites I believe because she thinks she's going back in her cage, but yet sometimes she's totally fine with it and i try to make it super fun, cool toys, dinner, a treat, etc.) I have been treating her for stepping up so she thinks stepping up is a game and happily does a good job and doesn't bite (mostly) and accepts the treat but as soon as she thinks it's not a trick anymore and is suddenly maybe me taking her where she doesn't want to go she bites me. It's possible once she can fly well and has confidence that this will go away but in the mean time....

So the question is, do I let her bite the sh*t out of me so that she learns she doesn't get what she wants for biting me? or is there another method I should try? Can I wear leather gloves? Is that an option? Or (other than not being fully flighted yet) is there something else bad I'm doing, (and other than being a big baby and relenting to her bites and setting her back down) or good i could be doing? Feel free to ask questions too.

Thanks guys!

[GreenWing]

I know how you feel. The sennies will test, test, test! While Tiki is considerably FAR less aggressive these days and is actually doing great, she has her moody days when she is slightly nippy. Well, she's spoiled, so my problem currently is that she always wants what I'm eating, and she'll give me a little "hey, pay attention to me, I want that" nip.

What I've observed with Tik in the past, is that when she is pissed at me, she turns her back to me and ignores me. I do this when she nips me. I think it works, but it's even more effective when I combine that with praise; I'll wait a minute with my back turned and bring her back out, praising her when she steps-up.

Have you tried this? I know how hard it is to not yell oh f%$#! when you get nipped, but the consistency has helped with my sennie hen...

[Eurycerus]

I haven't tried the turning the back thing. Michael is such a proponent of no reaction negative or positive but seeing as i am doing a horrible job at not reacting (i hold out until it becomes too painful and then gently shake and eventually place her back on her play gym or cage if it upset me enough. I'm so annoyed with myself but it hurts!) I'll at least try that technique. She wants and loves attention so she's not trying to tell me to go away which means the method might work.

[cml]

I cant just ignore Stitch's bites, an amazon beak is way to powerful.

We used to have a biting problem, but now I rarely get bitten. We ignored the bites as much as possible, but AFTER removing our hands or fingers. It wouldnt do anything good to see my or my wife´s hands mutilated.

People can preach that you shouldnt react at all how much they want, I know it to be an impossibility in some cases, I mean just imagine a macaw biting down. There is no way you keep your hand there, unless you are very good at stitching fingers back to their original hand.

I think you should ignore it as much as possible, but dont let your bird hurt you either. In my opinion they see that it hurts, and learns that its effective. Better yet, try to avoid all situations were you get bitten altogether, or at least as good as possible =).

You can work around a biting issue, without paying the price of lost limbs and blood. With that said, you need to accept that there will be a few bites and some blood . Just try to minimize your reaction to all bites, and try to spot what situations lead to biting, and then avoid them.

[Michael]

Sorry, didn't read the whole thing but just wanted to point out to the ignoring bites point. It's more about preventing them than tolerating them. The point is to avoid situations that lead to biting and instead focus on encouraging the ones that do not (such as targeting through positive reinforcement). The more the bird gets in the habit of not-biting the less it will resort to that. However, if you give it the chance to bite and then worse yet you reinforce it, it will be nearly impossible to get rid of. Also ignoring a bite doesn't mean stand still for a minute while the bird destroys your hand. You can move your hand out of the way or take the bird off but that's it. Don't do anything in response. Don't yell at the bird, don't squirt it, don't walk away, etc. Turning away or leaving only works if the bird is desperate for your attention to begin with. If it's biting to get you away, then walking away is negative reinforcement. Since you don't know for sure what it wants from you, the only way to avoid inadvertently reinforcing the behavior is not to do anything. Stopping the bite, however, is not likely to be what the bird is trying to achieve so it is probably a neutral response as long as it doesn't hurt/scare the bird in the process.

[Eurycerus]

We used to have a biting problem, but now I rarely get bitten. We ignored the bites as much as possible, but AFTER removing our hands or fingers. It wouldnt do anything good to see my or my wife´s hands mutilated...
try to minimize your reaction to all bites, and try to spot what situations lead to biting, and then avoid them.

So by ignoring the bites, you mean you get bit and then gently set him down, but say nothing and don't react?

Sorry, didn't read the whole thing but just wanted to point out to the ignoring bites point. It's more about preventing them than tolerating them. The point is to avoid situations that lead to biting and instead focus on encouraging the ones that do not (such as targeting through positive reinforcement). The more the bird gets in the habit of not-biting the less it will resort to that. However, if you give it the chance to bite and then worse yet you reinforce it, it will be nearly impossible to get rid of. Also ignoring a bite doesn't mean stand still for a minute while the bird destroys your hand. You can move your hand out of the way or take the bird off but that's it. Don't do anything in response. Don't yell at the bird, don't squirt it, don't walk away, etc.

That's okay. Also great to know! Thank god. I will work on consistently setting her back down for a bite. I can't avoid the bite to a certain degree because she does it when she's stepping up and *thinks* she's going back in the cage (at least that's my supposition). I am working on making stepping up fun and trying to prove to her that it's not all bad. I definitely don't yell or do any active punishment, other than setting her down.

Now that her hormones are under control she is biting much much more. When she was hormonal she was so distracted that she didn't want to bite as much. :/ Sort of unfortunate...

[cml]

It depends on the situation, but if you have to put her down, yes, if you can get away with removing your finger/hand do that. Just dont do anything else to show a reaction. In our case that worked, and as Michael said, its equally - if not more, important to try to avoid biting situations altogether.

[pionus]

cml wrote
I mean just imagine a macaw biting down. There is no way you keep your hand there, unless you are very good at stitching fingers back to their original hand.

if you think a macaw bite would be bad, imagine a black palm cockatoo! never actually been bitten by one, bu their beaks look huge AND razor sharp.

just pointing that out, sorry i don't have any actually advise.

[Eurycerus]

It depends on the situation, but if you have to put her down, yes, if you can get away with removing your finger/hand do that. Just dont do anything else to show a reaction. In our case that worked, and as Michael said, its equally - if not more, important to try to avoid biting situations altogether.

I understand avoiding the situation but she bites/nips/beaks nearly every time I have her step up unless she's in trick mode and thinks it's a trick (since she's been getting treats for stepping up nicely) except as soon as she's done with the treat she'll bite me. Sometimes she won't beak me at all when coming out of the cage, but generally she does the tasting, beaking thing (she doesn't get a treat if she touches me with her beak at unless it's for stability). Then once she's out she'll bite me under most circumstances if I have her step up. I guess i could get a perch and try to train her to step up onto the perch but that seems like it's avoiding the problem. Maybe it's a good idea though...

[Eurycerus]

I am with Nika right now and she is just acting horrendous (as she has been for the month, but really it started out with small things and gradually grew). It is really upsetting me. She targets just fine and will do her tricks for treats, etc, no problem. If she is on my finger for any amount of time she will bite, angrily! These're not friendly bites. I never yell (never have at any point with her). I have ideas as to why she does this but she bites even when she can clearly see that she's going to be set back down on her play stand (which she seems to have no issue with because as soon as she's off my finger no biting). I'm so confused and upset! I don't even want to hang out with her! But I know that not spending time with her will drastically reduce my chance of taming her more or stopping her biting.