Bizarre Vet Experience

[eggplantbren]

Hi everyone,

Sorry about the number of threads I'm starting. Our Alexandrine is new so we've got lots going on! I just wanted to relate this story because I'm quite perturbed by it and wanted to see what others thought.

Today we took him to the vet for a routine checkup and some tests. When we went into the vet's office, there was the vet (a lady) and also a man slouched in a chair in the room. We didn't know who he was and nobody introduced themselves.

Anyway we took our bird out of his crate and started talking about our various questions. Then the man wanted to hold our bird so we said OK. Anyway it turned out that this guy was someone official to do with the vet's office, although I still have no idea who he was. He proceeded to handle our parrot roughly without asking. Anyway about 80% of our conversation was with the chair man and not the vet. The vet asked if we had been researching about training etc. and we said yes. She recommended some materials that we were familiar with.

Then the man started telling us how we shouldn't allow the bird on our shoulder, and how we should forcably remove him if he tries to go there, and how we need to teach the bird that we are the boss and that he has to obey us, not the other way around. Basically this seems to go against everything we've read including the materials that the vet had recommended 2 minutes earlier.
I challenged him about the contrary advice and he basically said "well I've been breeding Hyacinth Macaws for XXX years so you have to decide who to trust".

They also recommended that we put grit in his food. Nobody else, including the breeders who sold us the bird, ever mentioned this. I've read advice not to put grit in food because it can cause problems and that no bird has ever died from lack of grit. I don't really care who's right about grit, but it would be nice to know so we can do the right thing.

Anyway apart from the terrible bedside manner and presumptuousness I'm curious mostly about the behavioural stuff. I thought the dominance theory for parrots was false and that negative reinforcement was mostly counterproductive?

[GreenWing]

Yeeeeeah, take that guy's advice with a grain of salt. Parrots should not have grit, it is deadly for them...they're not chickens or pigeons and grit can cause health complications for parrots (i.e., crop impacting).

As Michael discusses you also don't need to be domineering with your parrot to get desired results, you do, however need to be consistent in trainings. While I know some parrots owners don't agree on allowing their parrot on their shoulders, I do it all the time with Tiki without problems.

[eggplantbren]

Thanks GreenWing for your quick reply! Yeah, his behavioural advice did seem to go against 100% of sources I've ever read or heard of, and thanks for the grit info too. I will continue researching that. They're probably going to try to sell us grit tomorrow when we pick him up, so not sure what to do there...

[marie83]

With the grit, then yeah I wouldn't bother. Generally the birds that need a small amount of grit are the types that eat the whole seed with out removing the hulls/husks, obviously this is not true of parrots as we all see them removing them first. Just say no to the grit if they try to sell it to you or if you don't want a debate say you have some at home.

As for the shouldering then I don't think theres anything wrong with it per see as long as the bird has reliable step up so you can remove it and you bear in mind that you cannot read the birds body language when its on your shoulder and bites to the face are way more trust destroying than a bite on the hand-never mind the risk to your eyes. I think those are much bigger issues than the dominance issue which I don't agree with myself. I do shoulder mine but I'm careful about where my eyes are in relation to the bird, I have had one nasty nip from Ollie right under my eye in the past.

As for the training, Greenwing is right, its much much better to persuade than force a bird, there is no need to try to dominate a bird as it will not understand in the way a dog might. Tbh I don't see how you can force a bird into doing something anyway unless you terrorise it by throwing towels over it to get it into the cage or grab it/push it/flood it etc which will only destroy trust and lead into a fearful bird. Encouragement and positive reinforcement for successes are a much better way. Unfortunately some people are so set in their ways that their minds are not open to new ways of doing things.

[friend2parrots]

agree with the posters above, there's no need to dominate the bird if its been trained. the people who endorse that school of thought generally have not trained specific commands to their birds that the bird will follow through conditioning and positive reinforcement. also, the VAST majority of the dominance school of thought people clip their birds wings, so they HAVE been dominating and controlling their birds. thats all they know. its quite likely this rough handling guy is only familiar with clipped birds.

flighted birds have a different relationship with the shoulder, its not so cut and dry, but as marie said, the danger is there because no matter how well trained the fact of the matter is you still have a can opener right near your eyes. but flighted birds also dont bite as much, and dont feel trapped on your shoulder, so if soomething bothers them, they are more likely to fly away instead of take out their anxiety as displaced aggression on your face.

agree with greenwing and marie theres no need for grit for parrots. that is again an old school of thought.

as far as towels are concerned, toweling is flooding only when the bird has NOT been meticulously trained to accept and see toweling as harmless. the problem is that most people, including me, havent towel-trained their birds. your post and a few others are have reminded me that i need to begin towel-training my birds RIGHT AWAY, to get them ready for emergencies or vet visits. michaels blog has a step by step towel training guide.

[alliethebirdnerd]

i also agree with you guys ^^^
sometimes i can get a little soft, and i can understand maybe why he would say that about macaws, shouldering can be a hazard with any bird (for the person especially). however, i think it is up to the owner to know their bird. i hand raised my older senegal, so he has always had a mother/baby relationship with me so when he wants to go on the shoulder, its because something is making him scared so he wants comfort, or he wants to take a nap. however, i have a friend with a caique who is very feisty when she gets on someone's shoulder and likes to bite ears/faces so she is NOT allowed to stay on the shoulder. as a safety issue, the owner should determine if it is appropriate for the bird to be a "shoulder bird" or not. if the bird gets very territorial or bossy, then absolutely not. but i do not think that the parrot/person relationship should be a dominating situation. people i know who do not shoulder their birds use treats/positive reinforcement to teach the bird to stay on the arm, not the shoulder so in the long run the bird knows not to do it. neither the bird or the owner should be bossy

[chewy_num]

If anyone baring a licensed avian vet or my family roughed my bird up like that I'd go nuts! Sure he may have been breeding Hyacinth Macaws for XXX years but does he know anything about your bird? Sounds alarm bells.... if you see him again get his name and tell your vet... something seems odd...

I'd trust the vet, they have had numerous years of work/experience/ training on birds. Not some person in the vet...

Sorry, grinds me up a little...