Birdie backpacks

[Strawfrawg]

My tiel's outdoor cage was set up the same way. I also agree about supervision. I never feel comfortable leaving a bird outside unattended. I'm building an aviary for the new bird, so maybe with the additional space I'll feel better about it, but with my tiel in a smaller cage I hated to even go inside to use the bathroom.

[CSLFiero]

Also, from the fact that you selected "no" to flight, I presume that your Senegal Parrot is expected to come clipped. I would strongly urge you to reconsider this and demand that your breeder not clip the parrot. If the breeder won't agree to this, then cancel the deposit and stay as far away from that breeder as possible..

I'm with the bulk of this forum on flighted vs. clipped.. But you're in a unique position to preface that information with the fact that Kili was clipped. I've only ever seen her in your videos, but she appears to be pretty top tier in terms of being a good pet.

[marie83]

Also, from the fact that you selected "no" to flight, I presume that your Senegal Parrot is expected to come clipped. I would strongly urge you to reconsider this and demand that your breeder not clip the parrot. If the breeder won't agree to this, then cancel the deposit and stay as far away from that breeder as possible..

I'm with the bulk of this forum on flighted vs. clipped.. But you're in a unique position to preface that information with the fact that Kili was clipped. I've only ever seen her in your videos, but she appears to be pretty top tier in terms of being a good pet.

Hindsight perhaps? People learn from their mistakes sometimes ya know.

[GreenWing]

Hindsight perhaps? People learn from their mistakes sometimes ya know.

Word. You live and your learn. I have learned so much about parrots since I took mine home and I'm learning something new everyday.

[CSLFiero]

I don't see how Kili is in any way a mistake. I covet that little thing to the maximum.

[marie83]

I don't see how Kili is in any way a mistake. I covet that little thing to the maximum.

Did I say Kili was a mistake? no, the fact Michael got a clipped parrot ion the first place was, and he is the first person to admit that clipping parrots is wrong and he wont purchase a clipped parrot again if you saw how much trouble he went to make sure he located a breeder that agreed not to clip. I'm all for people having different opinions but don't come on here twisting my words please.

[CSLFiero]

I'm sorry Marie, you left your language ambiguous enough for it to be interpreted that way.

In the end the only point I'm trying to make is that if your breeder clips, consider it part of your value equation of that breeder and make the best possible choice considering all factors. Don't make clipping a deal breaker. Recognize that if the pros of a breeder outweigh the cons, you don't necessarily have to reconsider the choice of the bird, breeder, or ownership, just newly consider the potential challenges of a clipped baby.

I felt like that sentiment was getting lost and strawfrawg may not even have know that Kili was a clipped bird. I've noticed she's changed her response about flighted to Yes now, but it remains that her baby will likely come clipped if that's the requirements of her breeder. (see edit)

I see the little baby in her av.. And can sense that she grows excited for April, just one month away, for her baby to come home. Mike is the most respected person on this site.. and his suggestions are sagely and based in evidence, I think that's why she changed over to a Yes for flight. But she can't take her deposit back now, that would break her heart. It would break mine!

So no, there isn't a bit of reconsideration needed IMO . Only new considerations to the challenge of a bird who was clipped.

Edit: I went back and apparently her sennie isn't going to come clipped (sorry, my bad for missing that).. But I'm not going to change what I said because anyone in her position that has a breeder that does clip (in fact the breeder for my Greater will clip. It's just the way it has to be for her) needs to know that it's not going to ruin your pet.

[friend2parrots]

I'm sorry Marie, you left your language ambiguous enough for it to be interpreted that way.

i've been following this post, and I didnt think marie's language was ambiguous at all - it was clear to me that she was referring to the idea of "clipped", and not to Kili.

I think that a customer purchasing a parrot should be able to DEMAND if they have to, that the baby they are purchasing not be clipped. after all, you are handing over your money to this person!




FLEDGING is too important a milestone for a baby bird to miss if you have any control in the matter!

EDIT: i took out the word "assertiveness" and all that other stuff (thats not the main issue, and i dont want to distract from the issue at hand) - because michaels covered those points more clearly in his post below, and pretty much addresses all the issues i would have responded to.

[Michael]

Kili was clipped out of the store and never again. Half the inner primaries on her right wing never grew back as a result of a bad clip. She still learned to fly but flies a bit sideways and has a degree of permanent mental retardation as the result of not having fledged as a baby. She still flies quite well, but she doesn't have the same agility and ability to think on the fly as a never clipped bird.

Truman on the other hand was never clipped. I was very specific about finding a breeder that would raise a parrot and definitely not clip (I don't have time to dig through old links right now but I posted before about another breeder I was considering that first said she wouldn't clip and later said she would anyway). The Trained Parrot blog is in large part about how I've been managing and training Truman as a never once clipped parrot. Most people who keep flighted parrots received them as clipped at some point since the majority of stores, breeders, and rescues are fanatical about clipping wings. This presents both its own challenges and makes certain other things a little easier. With Truman, I've been sharing how possible it is to teach all the same things without ever having to resort to clipping. My goal is to blow away the myth that "you need to clip a parrot so you can tame it and so it will let you handle it."

When I got Kili, I didn't know any better. From all the "experts" I heard that clipping was the only way. All the parrots I encountered were clipped. I trusted their advice as they knew something and I knew close to nothing. There was also less chatter and information about keeping parrots flighted then than now. Now, having worked with Kili both as a clipped and flighted parrot (clipped for a year, flighted for four), working with other people's clipped parrots, and working with Truman who has never been clipped... I have mainly come to realize that the approach to training is almost identical regardless of flight when you do it right. It's just that clipping masks things when you do it wrong and then it ends up backfiring in side effects like biting. People don't realize that their parrot bites them now as the result of them forcefully cornering their parrot in the past and taking advantage of its inability to fly away. This is putting it bluntly but this applies to a host of situations. When I apply my "flight-minded" approach and train a parrot that is clipped anyway, I still achieve the best success. I treat the parrot like it can fly away and don't do things that I couldn't do it it could. This ensures the most successful learning.

Since I take this approach with clipped parrots anyway, it becomes not much harder to work with flighted parrots from the start. The only difference is the order of the training. With clipped parrots the preference is to teach a bunch of taming and tricks up front whereas with a flighted parrot you have to prioritize flight training from the start. So with Truman, my trick training rate is behind where Kili was at a similar age. Yet when I add combine his success in flight training + trick training to date, he is close to where Kili was at a similar stage. There is a large personality and species difference between the two that I think accounts for most of the differences and is irrespective of flight. I cannot confirm this, but having experienced many Senegals and read about other people's Cape Parrots, it is the most likely impression that I get.

[Michael]

In the end the only point I'm trying to make is that if your breeder clips, consider it part of your value equation of that breeder and make the best possible choice considering all factors. Don't make clipping a deal breaker. Recognize that if the pros of a breeder outweigh the cons, you don't necessarily have to reconsider the choice of the bird, breeder, or ownership, just newly consider the potential challenges of a clipped baby...

just wanted to mention that i disagree with pretty much everything youve written here. i would have to go line by line to itemize it. but i dont have the time right now. but basically here's the deal. a customer purchasing a parrot should have the assertiveness to DEMAND - and I mean D-E-M-A-N-D - that the baby they are purchasing not be clipped.

I have to live with the guilt of Kili having been butchered as a baby every day when I watch her flying funny because of her feather issue and when I see the ways in which she is mentally behind in flight compared to Truman. Having a once clipped and a never clipped parrot makes the difference clear as day to me which is why I warn so sternly.

I don't like clipping period, but if I were going to choose between which kinds of clippings create the most vs least harm, clipping a baby is by far the most. Getting a flighted parrot, letting it be flighted for 1 year, then clipping it for a year, then letting it fly again is far less detrimental than ruining those baby years of learning. That is the age when the parrot can learn to fly around a home, bounce of windows and walls. It won't get injured because like a human toddler it is built to fall. Yet it will learn the flight skills that will be useful throughout its life. Learning these late involves more difficulty, more hurt, and more mental deficiency.

As an example, Truman picked up flighted fetch in no time. Kili had to be trained. When Truman drops his nut, he can fly down in a corkscrew to pick it up, Kili can't do that. Truman can easily turn around in flight, boomerang, and change his mind about where he is going to go. Kili still has some trouble with this although she is starting to get better after years of working on it.

To me, a breeder that always clips is INCOMPETENT. They are masking their misunderstanding of how parrots function when they see no choice but to put scissors to wings. I'll cut some slack to breeders that properly fledge and go both ways. They're just trying to stay in business but they have some conscious. The breeders that clip before a parrot takes its first flight (or shortly after) just don't understand parrots well enough to be trusted to breed them in general. The same kinds of breeders/stores that are absolute about clipping are the ones who propagate absurdly outdated techniques such as flooding, forceful toweling, taking clipped parrots outside, and tons of other things I am just too tired to list right now.

Honestly, in my retrospective experience of talking to stores and breeders since I learned more about parrots, the ones that are absolute on clipping I tend to disagree most with on all other issues just the same. It's a complacent mindset about cutting (pun intended) corners yet this doesn't yield the best possibly babies. I hope this clarifies my point of view.

And when it comes to demanding the parrot not be clipped I mean this literally. There are all too many breeders who have pretended they'd sell unclipped but ended up doing it anyway. This is also a reason I don't bring my parrots in for groomings any more and do it myself. I just don't trust them not to quickly snip the wings out of habit before I could intervene. Not to mention how terribly and cruelly it is normally done. Even good vets have been known to make this mistake intentionally or unintentionally from time to time.

For all of you with flighted parrots, make your vet put in your bird's file "DO NOT CLIP WINGS." I had this done for mine in case someone birdsitting for me ever has to take my parrot in for an injury.