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The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby GreenWing » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:58 am

KaratParrot wrote:Jesus this kid needs to put down his imagined authority!


Disagreeing is one thing, but what you said is COMPLETELY inappropriate. Why are you here? Pearl-clutching trolls can take a hike.

I'm with Wayne. Michael has helped me tremendously, so I've got his back and can attest from personal experience that the Parrot Wizard is amazing with parrots. Take your haterade and drink it elsewhere.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Wolf » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:06 am

This topic has all of the makings of a great discussion on the various types and uses and misuses of positive and negative reinforcements as pertains to parrots specifically, and that is something that I, personally enjoy immensely. It makes for a great tool for learning the pros and cons of a particular subject.
I do not, however, agree with personal attacks on any individual during this process and find that it not only defeats the purpose of the discussion in the first place but it is rude and reflects badly on the party who perpetrates such attacks. This type of behavior is usually resorted to by politicians and other people who cannot adequately defend their position reasonably or logically.
I have no problem with standing your ground and defending your point of view, but I really think that we can avoid the pettiness of attacking each other just because we don't agree on something.
I have said before in another posting that this is one area that I am not in full agreement with Michael, and at this point in time, I stand with that disagreement. I further fell that he needs to look into this subject a bit more thoroughly and it would appear that I also need to review the available information pertaining to this subject, perhaps I need to reassess my position. I don't know, but I will look into the matter further.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Wayne361 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:03 pm

Other opinions are welcome on any board (well maybe not every board)...but personal attacks are a bit much. That is the difference. I have had disagreements wih Michael before ,but as an adult ,conversation has never lowered to the point of personal attacks.
I am the first to engage in debate. Love the dynamics and is a great venue for learning new ideas/methodology etc but have no tolerance for personal attacks....hence my defence of Mr Sazhin. btw I would have defended anyone if someone attacks the person rather than the opinion. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs a good slap.

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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby CSLFiero » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:06 pm

There are always several ways to skin the proverbial cat. Coming on mikes blog and telling him how he's wrong is a pretty lousy way of advertising your own method. Most of you didn't even tell us where we can buy your dvd lol!

Every bird is an individual, I've taken advice from a lot of sources and have generated a piece or two of my own. If our birds are happy and healthy, who can tell us we're wrong? I can tell you this though, mike has tame and well trained birds and made a running blog and YouTube channel about it. You can see his results. He made that public. Why don't you naysayers whip out your junk and put it on the butchers block before you pick up the meat cleaver? Maybe because, like the knife you wield, you are a blunt instrument.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby LisaB » Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:19 am

KaratParrot wrote:And with Micheal Sahzin's track record of misunderstanding negative reinforcement, misapplication of the four contingencies of behavior, lack of concern for ethical application of the four contingencies, promoting weight management for every parrot, having Kili BITE him on America's Got Talent (his excuse is "stage fright"), and then recently having Truman blown away because he didn't teach Truman how to fly in wind? Jesus this kid needs to put down his imagined authority!


I think one of the things I find most repulsive about many "bird" people is their imagined importance and elevated opinion of themselves. It's why I've stayed off of forums until recently and the reason I'll probably stop visiting this one. I just can't stomach the hubris. It's not the sentiment that bothers me--certainly I'll listen to another's opinion and maybe even learn something from it. It's the presentation that I find tiring. So many people find that it is more important to argue, attack and be "right" than it is to educate people. It's very sad because in the end these wonderful animals continue to suffer while the "experts" sling mud at each other and nobody learns a thing. If I want to do something good for my birds, I'll visit Kris Porter's Parrot Enrichment site. Reading this kind of inanity is pointless.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby Wolf » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:12 am

LisaB, Hi !

I understand what you are saying and I agree for the most part. I also think that no matter where you go you are going to find a certain amount of self important posturing. I don't think that it is going to change by running from forum to forum, I think that if you want to effect change you have to make a stand for your principles and not allow yourself to be pulled down into the pettiness. If you speak honestly and openly for educating each other without the need to attack each other, without resorting to petty bickering you may gradually be able to change things at least to a small degree because you are willing to walk your talk so to speak. Each time you can present your point of view without pretense or show someone that petty argueing and spiteful comments are not beneficial or acceptable you are working to change this behavior in the only way that has ever been effective. You can best be a positive force for educating people, only by showing them the way it could be and then letting them come to it in their own time, but only by showing them over and over again.
Think about it before you let them get to you and cause you to miss out on helping the people who come here asking for your help. I try to speak out and say that we can have our own views without all of the infighting and from there I just try to answer the questions that are asked to the best of my ability. If there are those who wish to engage in spiteful activities all I can do is disagree with that and continue to try and help those who need it.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby GreenWing » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:22 pm

Life is full of differing opinions. You roll with it, you can learn from it, you disagree, you debate, but you DON'T attack a person on THEIR blog. Such ad hominem attacks makes such a person, in the world of The Internet: Serious Business, a bona fide TROLL.

Look, I know a lot of "parrot experts" and they ALL think they know everything about parrots. The thing is, you don't have to agree with them. It's about having the power of your own opinion, thoughts and mind. You can disagree with a person's method, but even though you may disagree, that doesn't discredit the other person's experience. Mike IS knowledgeable and he has proved it. Certainly, not all will agree with some of his methods and some of the things he does, but all you have to do is look at the healthiness and trained behaviors of his birds to know he IS knowledgeable.

As Wayne said above, you can disagree without slinging mud and ganging up on a person on THEIR blog/forum. There are detractors who are out to attack Michael on HIS forum and blog; they need to bury their hatchets and do their own thing.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby LisaB » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:58 pm

Thank you, Wolf. You are 100% correct. Every once in a while I let that red-headed temper get a hold of me and it's never for the best! I've met several really great people here (you being one of them) and it would be dumb to miss out on you guys because of a few people who don't know how to present an arguement. I should know better. Thanks for setting me straight! :D
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby GreenWing » Thu May 01, 2014 2:03 am

On the note of "how to present an argument [sic]" this is me whenever someone dramatically states "I'm leaving!" while trashing the forum, only to inevitably return:

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(And for the record, before I get hate mail, I am not referring to anyone in particular in saying this, as this has happened quite a few times on the forum. I just amazes me when observing people and their amygdala, reacting in such emotional, dramatic ways. I don't let someone's opinion affect me; I also don't care what people -- except those I respect -- think of me. Present an argument using logic and reason without getting all dramatic and emotional and people will take you more seriously. Act like a drama llama and people will look at you like, well, a drama llama.)
Last edited by GreenWing on Thu May 01, 2014 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Positive Side of Negative Reinforcement

Postby LisaB » Thu May 01, 2014 2:42 am

I get what you're saying. However, I wasn't really presenting an argument, merely stating my gut reaction to something. If I'm going to challenge someone, I'm going to state why I disagree and then I'm going to give all the reasons why I believe my opinion is more valid. I'm not going to jump onto a forum, read a few things and then start name-calling.

I've never joined a forum before and my hesitation to do so was based on my experiences with some bird people--not all, but some. I usually approach people, animals and life in general with a sense of humor, but every once in a while someone gets under my skin. If there is one thing I've learned in life, it's that I will continually do and say stupid shit. I realized a long time ago that I'm not always right; I'm constantly having to admit this, so it doesn't even bother me any more.

Thank goodness for that, or every time I looked old pictures and some of my fashion decisions, I'd want to kill myself.
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