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How to Properly Clip a Parrot's Wings (Don't Clip at All)

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Re: How to Properly Clip a Parrot's Wings (Don't Clip at All)

Postby Michael » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:04 pm

seagoatdeb wrote:Again I will repeat, a modest clip does not deprive a bird of flying. There are many times that a parrot is stuck in a cage and the people are afraid to let it out because the bird flys up to where they cant get it. I would rather see a bird mildly clipped than stuck in a cage. Its that simple to me, quality of life trumps everything else. To have a clipped bird you must have the right situation for it. To have a flighted bird you must have the right situation for it. The clip should be modest if done, a bird needs to fly.


Then what's the point? If you don't clip enough, the bird can still fly so why clip? If clip a lot, then it can't fly. There are arguments that mildly clipped birds that still fly are being stressed worse by flying with some feathers missing than fully feathered. I see no reasonable purpose to this.
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Re: How to Properly Clip a Parrot's Wings (Don't Clip at All)

Postby Wolf » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:23 pm

The reason for the bird flying away from its person is the real issue as it shows that this person has not established trust with said bird and this is the issue in need of being addressed and not by clipping the wings which only serves to make the bird less trusting of the human who clipped its wings. If the bird trusts its human then it will nearly always fly to the person instead of flying away from them.
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Re: How to Properly Clip a Parrot's Wings (Don't Clip at All)

Postby ParrotsForLife » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:53 pm

Wolf wrote:The reason for the bird flying away from its person is the real issue as it shows that this person has not established trust with said bird and this is the issue in need of being addressed and not by clipping the wings which only serves to make the bird less trusting of the human who clipped its wings. If the bird trusts its human then it will nearly always fly to the person instead of flying away from them.

Yep exactly very true the day after I got Rio he was always flying over to me and when I was eating a sandwich he flew over and took some and flew to his cage with it.
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Re: How to Properly Clip a Parrot's Wings (Don't Clip at All)

Postby Pajarita » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:24 am

seagoatdeb wrote:Again I will repeat, a modest clip does not deprive a bird of flying. There are many times that a parrot is stuck in a cage and the people are afraid to let it out because the bird flys up to where they cant get it. I would rather see a bird mildly clipped than stuck in a cage. Its that simple to me, quality of life trumps everything else. To have a clipped bird you must have the right situation for it. To have a flighted bird you must have the right situation for it. The clip should be modest if done, a bird needs to fly.


A modest clip deprives the bird of vertical flight which is the most effective exercise for birds (there was study done with clipped birds made to climb up a hill while flapping their wings and it was found that muscle utilization was less than 10% compared to vertical flight). Gliding is not really flying and it doesn't really provide any muscle utilization to speak of (and that's why migrating birds use air currents where they can glide for hours -because they are resting while still advancing).

I absolutely agree with you that quality of life trumps everything else but, to a bird, flying is a HUGE part of their quality of life and that's why people who cannot provide a safe environment or achieve a good relationship with a parrot (I agree with Wolf's comment) should not have them. I know my position is extreme compared to what most people say out there but I am firmly convinced that 90% of people who own birds have no business owning them because they can't really provide the living conditions the birds need to have a healthy and content life. And clipping them is part of my beef...

People are funny when it comes to birds and use a completely different standard from other animals. I mean, nobody would think of buying a horse if they didn't have a barn, a corral and a place where they can ride it but they think nothing of getting a parrot even though they cannot provide it with the bird needs. It's one of those things that makes no sense to me but it seems to make sense to lots of other people and, personally, I think the difference is that, deep inside and although they don't admit to it, they still think: "It's just a bird"
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Re: How to Properly Clip a Parrot's Wings (Don't Clip at All)

Postby seagoatdeb » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:09 am

i am not arguing that it is not an issue that should be solved to have a bird that flys where you cant reach it. What i am saying is there are a vast number of parrots stuck in cages because they have full flight and the owners cant be sure they can catch them to be on time for work, appointments, school. etc. When they are stuck in the cage they cant fly and get enough excercize. With the modest clip my red belly has, when flying, she can turn the corner and get from the dinning room to the living room. She can also fly to me from every play stand in the place. My measure is she can get to halfway in the kitchen but not to where the stove is. if she could she would have to be caged everytime we cooked anything, but she is out anytime we are home and always one person is in the room to supervise. She is only caged when I go to bed. She has a place outside her cage where she sleeps until then. I keep caging to a minimum. It is easy to say that people should solve all their problems to be able to always have their birds return to them, but many people are busy and not with their birds for most of the day. Even with my own birds I can see if they were fully flighted they would not be able to be free as much as they are now. My birds dont merely glide! they can fly, just not as high or as far. They flap and excercise a lot as well as fly. I have lived in a situation where the birds I had at that time were safe having full flight. I am not for or against full flight or clipped flight. I am saying it is the decision of the person based on their living situation. To say that a modestly clipped bird that has a lot of excercise is disadvantaged to a flighted bird is not true. For every full flighted bird getting enough excercise there is a full flighted bird cagebound getting medical problems because of lack of excercise. Flight does not guarantee health by any means. Responsible owners are what guarantees health.
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Re: How to Properly Clip a Parrot's Wings (Don't Clip at All)

Postby seagoatdeb » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:19 am

Pajarita wrote:
seagoatdeb wrote:Again I will repeat, a modest clip does not deprive a bird of flying. There are many times that a parrot is stuck in a cage and the people are afraid to let it out because the bird flys up to where they cant get it. I would rather see a bird mildly clipped than stuck in a cage. Its that simple to me, quality of life trumps everything else. To have a clipped bird you must have the right situation for it. To have a flighted bird you must have the right situation for it. The clip should be modest if done, a bird needs to fly.


A modest clip deprives the bird of vertical flight which is the most effective exercise for birds (there was study done with clipped birds made to climb up a hill while flapping their wings and it was found that muscle utilization was less than 10% compared to vertical flight). Gliding is not really flying and it doesn't really provide any muscle utilization to speak of (and that's why migrating birds use air currents where they can glide for hours -because they are resting while still advancing).

I absolutely agree with you that quality of life trumps everything else but, to a bird, flying is a HUGE part of their quality of life and that's why people who cannot provide a safe environment or achieve a good relationship with a parrot (I agree with Wolf's comment) should not have them. I know my position is extreme compared to what most people say out there but I am firmly convinced that 90% of people who own birds have no business owning them because they can't really provide the living conditions the birds need to have a healthy and content life. And clipping them is part of my beef...

People are funny when it comes to birds and use a completely different standard from other animals. I mean, nobody would think of buying a horse if they didn't have a barn, a corral and a place where they can ride it but they think nothing of getting a parrot even though they cannot provide it with the bird needs. It's one of those things that makes no sense to me but it seems to make sense to lots of other people and, personally, I think the difference is that, deep inside and although they don't admit to it, they still think: "It's just a bird"



I agree with your beef, but people that should not have birds are usually not clipping them. The amount of fully flighted birds stuck in cages is staggering and hurts my soul. My biggest beef is parrots stuck in cages for too many hours.
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Re: How to Properly Clip a Parrot's Wings (Don't Clip at All)

Postby seagoatdeb » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:31 am

Michael wrote:
seagoatdeb wrote:Again I will repeat, a modest clip does not deprive a bird of flying. There are many times that a parrot is stuck in a cage and the people are afraid to let it out because the bird flys up to where they cant get it. I would rather see a bird mildly clipped than stuck in a cage. Its that simple to me, quality of life trumps everything else. To have a clipped bird you must have the right situation for it. To have a flighted bird you must have the right situation for it. The clip should be modest if done, a bird needs to fly.


Then what's the point? If you don't clip enough, the bird can still fly so why clip? If clip a lot, then it can't fly. There are arguments that mildly clipped birds that still fly are being stressed worse by flying with some feathers missing than fully feathered. I see no reasonable purpose to this.


one example of the point and reasonable purpose is my birds cant reach the stove, so they dont have to be put in the cage everytime I cook so they get more time out. Birds moult every year and are often flying with missing feathers, so that stressed flying argument has no weight for me. Quality of life is the most important factor for me. The big point is the number of people with fully flighted birds that dont let them out much because they can catch them and dont have a lot of time to train. i would rather see them have more freedom and excercise than being stuck in a cage.
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Re: How to Properly Clip a Parrot's Wings (Don't Clip at All)

Postby ParrotsForLife » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:17 am

seagoatdeb wrote:
Michael wrote:
seagoatdeb wrote:Again I will repeat, a modest clip does not deprive a bird of flying. There are many times that a parrot is stuck in a cage and the people are afraid to let it out because the bird flys up to where they cant get it. I would rather see a bird mildly clipped than stuck in a cage. Its that simple to me, quality of life trumps everything else. To have a clipped bird you must have the right situation for it. To have a flighted bird you must have the right situation for it. The clip should be modest if done, a bird needs to fly.


Then what's the point? If you don't clip enough, the bird can still fly so why clip? If clip a lot, then it can't fly. There are arguments that mildly clipped birds that still fly are being stressed worse by flying with some feathers missing than fully feathered. I see no reasonable purpose to this.


one example of the point and reasonable purpose is my birds cant reach the stove, so they dont have to be put in the cage everytime I cook so they get more time out. Birds moult every year and are often flying with missing feathers, so that stressed flying argument has no weight for me. Quality of life is the most important factor for me. The big point is the number of people with fully flighted birds that dont let them out much because they can catch them and dont have a lot of time to train. i would rather see them have more freedom and excercise than being stuck in a cage.

I dont think clipping should even be allowed like its cutting a birds feathers with no permission your bird cant say No or Yes and its not fair on the bird that he has to change his life for you I mean they love to fly they were born with the ability of flight and im sure you would love to be able to fly too.And you should listen to what Pajarita is saying because shes right.
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Re: How to Properly Clip a Parrot's Wings (Don't Clip at All)

Postby Pajarita » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:00 am

Actually, molt is done in such a way that the bird only loses two remiges at a time and they are replaced in a matter of days so one cannot really use a comparison between molting and clipping. And you can't use 'quality of life' to justify clipping because clipping is one of those things that takes away from their quality of life. It's like saying that keeping a dog chained to a post provides quality of life because without it, the dog would have to be in a cage all the time. Or that hobbles for a horse gives its life a good degree of quality because, without them, he would have to be in his stall all its life. The function of the impediment (clipping, chain, hobbles)contradicts the reason for justification. And people who keep their birds in cages most of the time don't do it because they are flighted, they do it because they don't care.

The truth is that we need laws to cover bird husbandry... If one country can do it, all countries can.

Re-reading the last postings, it seems as if we are ganging up on you but I can assure you we are not trying to do this. We've heard all the different arguments and have thought about each of them long and hard... The point we are trying to make is that, whenever somebody says that they need to clip, if you 'dig' deep enough the reasons why, it's always because they cannot provide the right conditions for properly keeping a bird and, if that is the case, they shouldn't have any.
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Re: How to Properly Clip a Parrot's Wings (Don't Clip at All)

Postby seagoatdeb » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:19 pm

Thats okay, I dont feel ganged up on. I feel my truth deep inside. I think we are all on the same page and love our birds and want them to have the best lives we can offer. I believe with all my heart that each bird owner has to do the best they can, and a lot of them shouldnt have birds but they do. Thats the reality. The more high ideals are pushed at those kind of people the more they feel they cant measure up, so they dont comment and they dont get the help they need. We have to deal with the reality, sure maybe there can be laws that help the birds to have better lives, but right now we can help birds the most by helping those bird owners who dont have a lot of time to spend with the birds. Maybe you think thats with no clipping, but I think its by letting them out of the jail of the cage. Flying is pointless if you are in prison.
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