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Ringo bit my nose - I gave him the cold shoulder

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Ringo bit my nose - I gave him the cold shoulder

Postby friend2parrots » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:48 am

*long post alert*

Today, out of the blue, Ringo bit me on the nose during scritches time. :( It was a hard and painful bite, that would probably have drawn blood had it been delivered at a slightly different angle. But luckily it only left a big puffy red swollen spot and what looks like a very light scratch. But this was no nip. Ringo clearly intended it as a bite, and delivered it with maximum force. :(

i think the trigger for the bite was Toby's chirping and flying. these days toby has developed a habit of chirping and flying around excitedly whenever he sees me doing one-on-one activities with Ringo, such as flight recalls, scritches, cuddles. he doesn't interrupt my lessons with Ringo, but I think Ringo gets overwhelmed and distracted by toby's rapid haphazard flying+chirping, Toby ONLY starts doing this when I begin Ringo's lessons. I think Toby has been jealous for a while of the amount of attention Ringo has been getting as part of his post-spookout therapy, and this is his new way of letting me know.

well, Ringo was fine for one hour of various activities, including flight recalls, step ups, directed flight (I tell him to fly to a particular location). (the whole time, Toby was flying around makinga chirping racket, but Ringo has learned how to tune him out and concentrate on my commands, which I say in a loud enough voice over Toby's chirping. when Ringo seemed tired, I decided it would be a good time for scritches. he seemed very relaxed. and then all of a sudden -CHOMP DOWN! - on my nose.

what I would like help with is the following: I was wondering if you guys could tell me if my reaction to the bite was correct: I pried Ringo's beak off my nose in a single, gentle motion, without making any sound. I placed him swiftly but gently on the floor, walked about five steps away, and "gave him the cold shoulder": I turned sideways and looked elsewhere, and stood still, completely ignoring him, with a flat, blank expression on my face, silent. I think Ringo understood something was wrong - because instead of trying to follow me as he normally would have, he flew up onto a table and just sat there. for a full three or four minutes! he never sits still in one place for that long. after that, what was even more unexpected is that he went off to find toby and started hanging out near toby on their tree. he played with a toy there, while I sat on a chair in the same room, looking the other way, to "show" my displeasure at his bite. ( I wasn't really mad at him, I just wanted him to think I was displeased) he ignored me, and I ignored him. this never happened before!! it was kind of weird and I felt a little guilty for giving him the cold shoulder. it was only about twenty minutes later, that Ringo broke the ice by landing on my lap. I did not react, and he started preening himself. I realized he was trying to make friends again. so I picked him up, gave him some nice cuddles, and twenty minutes later, put him back in his cage on a positive note, with a treat, so I could check out my nose.

so i'm wondering if the cold shoulder was the right thing to do. in the past, I would ignore bites, by placing ringo down, ignoring him for one minute, and then resuming training on a happy positive note. today, because his bite was on the face (first facial bite since his spookout) I thought it warranted a more sustained disapproval from me.

wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this matter, or if you would like to share how you react to sudden unexpected bites?
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Re: Ringo bit my nose - I gave him the cold shoulder

Postby marie83 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:06 am

Blummin green cheeks, always expect the unexpected with them lol.

Sounds like you did the right thing tbh, 20 mins may or may not be a bit extreme though - I don't know. Even when Ollie got me right under my eye I didn't go that long but can't rememer how long, maybe 5 mins? I do the same, put bird down and walk away, unless I think the birds biting because it wants to be left alone. If Ollie flies after me I just return him to the spot I left him (careful, this can turn into a game without caution) or duck out his way so he cannot land on me.

**EDIT**

By the way the reason I say I dont know if twenty mins is a bit extreme is because unlike some other animals parrots dont forget so quickly but for that reason their intelligence may also mean they will get the message by a shorter punishment time. I haven't really got a clear thought on that at the moment but it should be fine provided the action was immediate and there were no breaks/gaps in the timeframe.
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Re: Ringo bit my nose - I gave him the cold shoulder

Postby cml » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:22 am

I would do the same, but not put him on the floor. I did that in the past, and it didnt end up well...
But removing, not making any sudden noises, and then ignoring is what I think is the correct approach!
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Re: Ringo bit my nose - I gave him the cold shoulder

Postby friend2parrots » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:35 pm

thanks for your responses guys! i feel a lot better now.

marie83 wrote:By the way the reason I say I dont know if twenty mins is a bit extreme is because unlike some other animals parrots dont forget so quickly but for that reason their intelligence may also mean they will get the message by a shorter punishment time.


yeah, this is exactly what concerned me about the situation! When such sudden bites have happened in the past i never let more than a minute or so pass between bad behavior and the return to a pleasant, positive training situation, because I wanted Ringo to view the whole interaction time in a positive light, and I figured he would have forgotten after a minute why he was being ignored.

Ringo always came back to patch things up after similar bites/ignoring episodes in the past, and always within a few minutes. so I guess i was waiting for him to come back today - i thought i should wait for him to make the first move because it was a facial bite. but if this happens again in the future, should I wait or go and pick him up after a few minutes? I was concerned today that it took him about twenty three minutes to decide that he wanted to come back to interact, especially when he usually comes back very soon. in terms of my reaction to the bite, I did nothing different this time, I removed him gently from my nose, and I put him on the floor gently (that’s where I usually place him for biting, so that wouldn’t have seemed odd to him this time at least) and turned and walked away gently.

Maybe Ringo realized that he had done something unprecedented (biting my nose) and it felt weird to him afterwards in hindsight (its weird - he does act like he has hindsight sometimes, even though a lot of people argue that animals don't have it), especially since he has not bitten me since mid December, and we have been on a very positive footing since then. Maybe it took him twenty three minutes to process the gravity of the situation. I’m not sure. Sometimes I do think he remembers things for a very long time, and takes things personally too, which is why I try to be as gentle as possible in addressing his biting.

cml wrote: I would do the same, but not put him on the floor. I did that in the past, and it didnt end up well...


cml, I would be very interested to hear why you think putting him on the floor might not be a good thing. i place him there because Ringo doesnt stay there for long (he generally flies up on his own to a higher level) and the change in altitude seems to communicate to him that something is amiss (he generally doesn't hang out on the floor, and prefers to be on furniture, tables, or perches). but I will stop putting him on the floor if theres a better way of doing things. i was wondering when you say "that it didn't end up well" with your birds when you put them on the floor, what happened?
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Re: Ringo bit my nose - I gave him the cold shoulder

Postby marie83 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:29 am

I don't know if its right but I tend to retrieve the bird rather than let the bird come to me as it passes control back to me, although I don't mean that in a domineering kind of way, if the bird didn't want to be retrieved I would go back later. I've never had to go back later though, Ollie was always grateful to be picked up and carry on with our day.

As for where to place the bird after a bite I suppose it depends on the individual bird. If Harlie were to bite me suddenly being placed on the floor would be far too scary for her and it would lead to a panic. Ollie couldn't care less about being on the floor but then there is a danger if he is in a really agressive mood that he will chase our feet or someone may tread on him but since he goes on the floor anyway theres less risk of accidents if we actually put him there. Placing Ollie on the floor doesn't bother him any more than placing him down elsewhere, unless we place him somewhere he cant see us immediately after we walk away. This is something we do only if he has delivered a really aggressive attack or landed one on my face.
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Re: Ringo bit my nose - I gave him the cold shoulder

Postby cml » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:41 am

cml, I would be very interested to hear why you think putting him on the floor might not be a good thing. i place him there because Ringo doesnt stay there for long (he generally flies up on his own to a higher level) and the change in altitude seems to communicate to him that something is amiss (he generally doesn't hang out on the floor, and prefers to be on furniture, tables, or perches). but I will stop putting him on the floor if theres a better way of doing things. i was wondering when you say "that it didn't end up well" with your birds when you put them on the floor, what happened?

In my situation, it was a combination of things I think. What I did (and wrongly) was when Stitch bit, I told him no, grabbed him, and put him on the floor. He came to see this as a punishment (partly because I put him in a lower place I think), and rather than helping with biting, it increased it.
Also, in combination with the arrival of Leroy, and a behaviour change in Stitch, it also led to him not wanting us to grab him.

I realised my mistake pretty soon though, and started working to decrease biting, and many bloody bites later, it was all but gone. This was quite some time ago, probably last summer or so?
Stitch is a completely different parrot when it comes to aggression, and we've worked past my mistakes now.
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Re: Ringo bit my nose - I gave him the cold shoulder

Postby Andromeda » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:15 pm

I'm sorry you got a bite on the face. :-( That's no fun. Putting him on the floor and ignoring him is the right reaction. I'm of the opinion that unless placing him on the floor is a "bad" thing (as with Marie and CML) that's the best thing to do because you don't want to put him on his stand or his cage since that could potentially be perceived as reinforcing if he wanted to go to either of those places.

I don't really know if ignoring a bird past a minute or two means anything to them. I know they have good memories but I don't think they have the capacity to understand that being ignored for a longer period of time means they were especially bad, although I don't really blame you since he bit you on the face.

You said that in the past you ignored for a shorter period of time and afterward cued some tricks so you could do positive reinforcement and I think overall that's probably the best reaction to a bite because not only do you ignore the unwanted behavior but you then cue incompatible, positive behavior and reward it. I think it kind of helps the bird move on from the bite.

Coincidentally Bubba, who pretty much never bites, bit the living @#$% out of my husband yesterday. My husband walked into the room and Bubba flew over to my head. My husband went to pick him up and Bubba just latched onto his hand and wouldn't let go. I could feel how bad the bite was since he was perched on my head because I felt him clamp his feet down so he could get extra leverage. It was really out-of-character and we don't know why he did it; he likes my husband more than me so it's very unlikely that it was one of those types of bites they deliver when they object to someone else approaching the "favorite person."

My husband turned around and walked out of the room but I was kind of in a bad position because I wanted to place Bubba on the floor but as he was sitting on my head with his feet firmly anchored in my hair I didn't dare try to touch him because he was muttering up a storm after the bite and I felt like if I reached up to get him then I would get a bite, too! I just ignored him for a short while and then removed him from my head after a few minutes.

As a note I don't allow him to sit on my head but he flew to my head right as my husband was trying to pick him up which is why I didn't try to remove him myself. I wonder if I had tried to remove him if he would have bit me instead? I don't know.
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Re: Ringo bit my nose - I gave him the cold shoulder

Postby friend2parrots » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:56 pm

thanks everyone for your further feedback. I appreciate it! its very helpful to put what I am doing with Ringo in context with your advice and personal experiences of similar situations with your birds. I'll keep what you guys have said in mind for the future in case Ringo bites again.

its interesting to see how the floor has different meanings for different birds - for Harlie, its too intense, for Ollie, its no big deal, and for Stitch, it made him realize he was being punished, which he then started to resist. so far, for Ringo, the floor has been a temporary annoyance kind of place, where he'd rather not be, but he has not shown increased aggression or resentment after having been placed there, luckily, so i guess i will continue to put him down on the floor if he bites again. the problem with putting him anywhere else is like Andromeda mentioned he doesn't see those other places as anything "different" - Ringo likes basically every possible location i could put him on too much. but I don't think he yet perceives he is being punished like Stitch. gosh, then i would be in trouble, because I'd have nowhere to put him... but hopefully Ringo's therapy will progress further along and he will cease to bite. I have a lot of work to do with him, but I can tell he is improving every single day.

I am sorry to hear that Bubba bit your husband yesterday, Andromeda. after reading about what happened I had a few thoughts i'd like to share:

Andromeda wrote:My husband walked into the room and Bubba flew over to my head. My husband went to pick him up and Bubba just latched onto his hand and wouldn't let go. I could feel how bad the bite was since he was perched on my head because I felt him clamp his feet down so he could get extra leverage. It was really out-of-character and we don't know why he did it;


this type of "crazy enraged and out-of-character" biting is something Ringo did a lot of last summer. the littlest things would trigger an explosive biting frenzy, but not immediately - the stress would build up in his body and only be expressed later. its possible that's whats going on with Bubba. from your other thread about his sneezing, it seems that Bubba has been quite stressed recently, having to be medicated, and following a strange new handling procedure with you. he is probably releasing an awful lot of excess stress hormones now. so basically any small trigger could have set him off. it could have been a shirt color or a squirrel outside on the lawn that he didn't like the looks of - whatever the trigger was, the threshold for aggressive response (conures exhibit fear or stress through aggression) is probably far lower now for Bubba than it was before he had begun his medication. so basically, i think he was super-wired, to the point that he would have bitten anyone or anything at that moment. So I think if you had tried to remove him, he definitely would have bitten you as well.

last summer, when Ringo's stress hormones were very severe, the slightest thing would set him off - it could be the rustling of a plastic bag (which he doesn't like) or a dropped spoon. and he would dive bomb whoever was nearest, it didnt matter whom. (Ringo is bonded to me, but has a much more distant, aloof flock-mate regard for my husband and Toby).

so in any case, I think Bubba's biting is a temporary aberration caused by the stress of being medicated. so i think the good news is that once the stressor is gone, he shouldn't bite anymore like that.
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Re: Ringo bit my nose - I gave him the cold shoulder

Postby marie83 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:59 am

Must be something going round in the air, Ollie landed one on my face yesterday, just above my lip which hurt alot and bled a fair amount too.
It was totally my fault though, I was ignoring his body language as its been so so long since he last bit me. I was trying to retrieve him off my bf's shoulder when he just flew at my face, not sure why he chose my face rather than my hand though as my face was some distance....
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Re: Ringo bit my nose - I gave him the cold shoulder

Postby friend2parrots » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:28 am

ouch, marie! really sorry to hear that! :( yeah I agree, there's definitely something in the air - first Ringo then Bubba then Ollie in the space of two days!

maybe its the same thing going on for Ollie as I mentioned above for Bubba? from what you've written over the past few weeks about Ollie, it does sound like he's going through a lot of stress right now, with multiple vet visits, medications, etc. i totally know what you mean about taking it for granted that one's bird hasn't bitten for a while, and hence putting your guard down. that's what i did just prior to the nose bite. i guess it goes to show that no matter how comfy or relaxed a GCC seems to be with a situation, always good to expect otherwise...
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