Sometimes I hate Maine - lack of avian vets - RANT

[paper_lantern]

The closest avian vet to where I live is a full four hours away. I posted awhile back concerning Chubby's overgrown lower beak which chipped on one side and now has a little crack in it (there are pictures in the previous post). I brought Chubby to them the first time and they did a beak trim but wanted to wait on the blood work due to him being very agitated. I took him back a second time and he saw a different vet at the same practice who trimmed his beak (not enough, it's still overgrown), and then proceeded to tell me that the small crack in his beak would never grow out because it looks like it goes into the growth plate?! When I look at his beak the crack only looks like it's in the overgrown part. I'm so confused.

Now, I would have taken this vet's advice no questions asked until he started trying to give me diet advice. He said the roudybush Chubby is on is no good, that I need to switch to Harrisons (why!?). He then said that small parrots don't need much fresh food and that I should just buy frozen veggies and give those to him. That makes no sense to me, frozen veggies have added sodium sometimes, fresh is better. I'm not seeing this vet anymore.

Now I'm trying to schedule an appointment with a vet SIX hours away to see if I can get a second opinion concerning the overgrown beak and the small crack. I'm feeling so overwhelmed. He is eating fine and acting fine, I'm just so worried that the crack grows and hurts him or something. I wish I lived in a state with more avian vets who actually know what the heck they are doing.

[Harpmaker]

I can't help you with beak issues. Sorry.

The cheap frozen mixed veggies are JUST veggies, and are a good start for parrot food. They are light on greens though, so you need to add stuff. As you noted, the fancy ones have sauces with butter and cheese that parrots don't need at all, so the cheap ones are better for this.

As Pajarita often points out, avian vets don't study avian nutrition. It's an odd omission. Pellets are a first attempt to supply proper nutrition, but they have a ways to go. All pellets have drawbacks, some more than others. I am not equipped to analyze them except to say vets all recommend pellets, but some people who don't use them have perfectly healthy parrots, as do some who do.

Is Maine far enough north to need to modify the solar schedule so the parrots get some sleep in the summer?

[Wolf]

I went back and looked at the old pics of Chubby's beak and it does appear that the crack is only in the overgrown portion. It looks to me that if the beak were to be trimmed correctly that this should eventually grow out. I issue is getting it trimmed so that it meets properly so that it does not make the crack grow. Now it is possible that the beak has a microscopic crack that does extend into the live tissue, but it takes something like an x-ray to reveal that. I also lack an avian vet within 2 hours or more, so I know how difficult that can be.
I have always dealt with animals and most of the places that I have lived vets were few and far between, so my answer has always been to research my animals as thoroughly as possible with an eye for the prevention and emergency treatment of whatever might crop up. It takes longer and is more difficult to understand but it is well worth it.
I don't believe that I would use this last vet that you spoke of much either. Well maybe for routine exams or something such as that. He appear to be more interested in lining his pocket than he is in giving accurate advice. It could be that he is still young in the profession and like the crack in Chubby's beak will outgrow it if it doesn't run too deep. Who knows.

[paper_lantern]

Thanks guys! The issue I have with the frozen veggies is just the fact that I don't understand why the vet would recommend frozen veggies over the fresh ones I'm already feeding twice a day. I told him that I feed Chubby an assortment of fresh veggies and fruit twice a day (trying to get a lot of vitamin A rich foods in there). He then told me that I should do frozen instead of fresh and that just a couple of veggie pieces a day should suffice. It's too bad, he's a very nice man and was super gentle with Chubby.

I will keep everyone updated as to how the next vet appointment with the new vet goes.

[Wolf]

Perhaps he was trying to be nice as for the most part frozen veggies ar less expensive than fresh. My thought was that he wanted you to change from one brand of processed food to another when they both have about the same reputation for quality, although I could have understood this recommendation much better if what you were feeding were of a lower quality. So I figured that he might get a kickback on the feed.

[paper_lantern]

He was a very nice guy like I said. I'm just very anal about who treats Chubby medically because I'm paranoid about his well-being. The vet did give me a lot of literature about harrisons and had me buy some powdered vitamins to put on his fresh foods.

Also as to the question about light schedule; we don't have the months of only light or only dark that Alaska gets for example, but it does get dark around 4:00 here in the winter.

[Pajarita]

Yes, Wolf, the profit could very well be the reason why he recommended Harrison's -it's not sold in stores, only by vets or distributors. But it can also be that Harrison's was the first pellet that vets had access to and the sales guys talk to them personally so, human nature been what it is, they are more willing to accept these guys' word than do their own research. OR, it could be that he prefers Harrison's because it's organic while Roudybush is not.

As to not studying parrot nutrition been a lack... well, the plain truth is that it would be impossible. Avian vets are regular vets who had to learn about physiology, diseases, treatments, surgery, etc of many, many species (dogs, cats, horses, cows, pigs, sheep, etc), then they apprentice with a certified avian vet and learn as they go for 6 years until they study from whatever avian medicine text they choose before they take an exam and, if they pass it, they get their certification so, for one thing, the amount of knowledge they have to learn is already a staggering amount and I often wonder how much they actually remember! It would be impossible for them to actually learn the dietary ecology of every single species of parrot out there! Sheesh, I've been studying parrot diets for almost 20 years (since a parrot I rescued had high uric acid) and still don't know anywhere near enough! And I don't even work while vets often work 6 days a week! Where would they find the time to do the research?! My beef is that they give advice on diet making it seem as if this was part of their training when it's not.

As to frozen versus fresh, well, the reason he recommended it could be that, in reality, when it comes to nutritional value, ounce for ounce, frozen is better than fresh. This is because:
A) produce picked for freezing is allowed to ripen in the plant and picked when they are at their highest nutrient-density while produce to be shipped as 'fresh' is picked when still green and ripens either on its way or by using 'ripening gas' prior display in the supermarket.
B) fruits and vegetables start degrading as soon as they are separated from the plant (and that's why the 'locally grown' are always better from a nutritional point of view)

I take the easy way out, I use frozen veggies in the gloop and use fresh as the accompaniment.

Now, if I were you, I would not get too hanged up on getting a 'certified' avian vet, there are vets that treat exotics that know more and are better than certified avian vets -it was the best regarded certified avian vet in the area where I used to live in Pa that misdiagnosed a bird I rescued and this cost the poor animal his life - and it was a simple 'exotic' one that figured it out (but it was too late by then) and ended up been the very best avian vet I've ever had.

[paper_lantern]

I'm happy to report that I've found the most amazing vet! I had to drive 6 hours to get to him He is exotic certified but sees many parrots every day and has been working in the field for a long time. I was really nervous for the appointment. But Dr. Mike was so calm and gentle with Chubby. He could see that I was nervous so he talked me through everything he was doing as he was doing it. He even stopped to comfort Chubby if it looked like he was getting stressed.

Not only did he fix Chubby's beak (still monitoring it, though), he gave Chubby a complete physical exam. He got a clean bill of health! Since I live so far away he wants me to send him pictures of Chubby's beak in 2-3 weeks so we can ascertain if and when he needs to be seen again.

Once the exam was over, Dr. Mike even gave me an extra blanket for Chubby's travel cage. I had already brought one, but he was worried that Chubby might get exposed to the cold on the way to the car. Not only that, but since I drove six hours, the office knocked the price of visit in half!

Thank you Pajarita, for recommending an exotic vet. I was under the assumption that it HAD to be avian, but this guy blew all the avian vets I've seen out of the water!

[Wolf]

Great news ! Glad to hear such good news.

[Pajarita]

People get too hanged up on the Board certification not realizing that it doesn't really mean much. For one thing, the only difference between a certified avian vet and one that treats exotics is the test which, because it's one single test couldn't possibly begin to cover all there is to know about birds. Avian vets don't go to school to become one, they just learn as they go, same as the exotics vets. Personally, I had exactly the same experience you had, Dr. Jodie Santore was not certified, she just treated exotics (as well as dogs and cats) and she was the best bird vet I've ever had... warm, caring, reasonably priced (and always willing to look for whatever help she could give in terms of prices and medicines), knowledgeable, experienced (she had parrots of her own), took her time with both the animals and their owners and, when she did not know something or was not sure, she will admit it and do research on her own time until she figured it out. This woman gave birth on a Thursday and came to the office that Sunday to check on the progress of a parrot of mine she had done surgery on! Now, I dare anybody who goes to an expensive avian vet to trump that!