Argh

[Saerphe]

Today while my parents were visiting, Akimi got startled while perched on my shoulder and took flight. She immediately turned around and landed on my hand when I called her, but it made an impression on my parents. My mom thinks I should clip her, but my dad went much further than that.

He actually suggested I have her pinioned. He said that once it was done her flight feathers would never grow back and I'd never have to worry about it anymore.

I was horrified. I explained to him that flight feathers are rooted in the bone - it would be bad enough to damage the feather follicles, but to really pinion a bird all at once would probably require permanently damaging the bone so any potential new flights couldn't root properly. I told him it would be as cruel and painful to pinion a bird as de-clawing is for a cat - but he didn't seem think there was anything wrong with de-clawing either... even though de-clawing means removing the first bone in each of a cat's toes (where the claw is attached), and causes long-term pain and health complications. I don't even know any reputable vets who would agree to perform a de-clawing procedure in this day and age.

I tried to make it absolutely clear that I won't be clipping Akimi's wings, and under no circumstances would I ever allow her to be pinioned. The very thought makes me sick. I think he was at least partly still mad at her for biting him earlier in the evening, but I can't believe he would ever bring up such an idea, even if he didn't really mean it.

I don't know how I'm ever going to get Akimi to start being gentler with strangers if I can't even get my own family to like her. Whenever I try to encourage them to try bonding with her by giving her treats through the cage, or to work on other kinds of hands-off bonding (like sitting nearby while she hangs out in her cage), they refuse. But then, when they try to handle her and she lunges or bites, they act like she's a bad bird.

She's not a bad bird. She just doesn't trust them. And why would she if they haven't given her any reason to? The way Dad went on and on about getting bitten (and though she did leave a welt, she didn't break the skin) and all the things I should do to her to make her behave, they aren't giving me much reason to trust them with her either.

[shiraartain]

I'm confused. Why is it a problem when she flew back to you? I'm also a bit concerned that your dad was so upset about being bitten that he wants to inhibit her ability to fly forever.

Fajr is like a cat. He knows his name-he'll look at you if you say it even in conversation, and will fly to you on command if he feels like it. Otherwise he'll ignore you completely, and act as though if he doesn't hear you. If you offer him a treat, he'll look at you as though if he's considering it...then continue doing whatever he was before .

[Saerphe]

Well, when he got bitten, he said that if she did it again, he'd ring her neck. The suggestions to have her pinioned came later. I don't think he actually meant it (he knows how much I love her), but it's still an offensive thing to say at best, and a terrifying threat at worst. I keep telling my family members that they can't take it personally when a bird bites them - it's just birds being birds, and you have to try and gain their trust in other ways before handling them. But Dad never bothers to listen to what I have to say and take my advice. He's one of those "If I'm right, I'm right; and if I'm wrong, I'm still right" sort of people who doesn't think the opinions or advice of his children are worth listening to. It's not like I'm a kid anymore either - I'll be 23 in a month, for God's sake!

It was more of a problem that she was able to take off and fly around in the first place. Admittedly, she doesn't always come back when I call her if she gets startled. I haven't really had a chance to work on flight recall training with her yet, but we're going to be starting on that now that I have a training perch she can get a decent grip on. We spent most of the first month-and-a-half building our trust bond, switching her to a healthier diet, and helping her learn to play independently (in her cage and on a play stand). I've had her for about three months now and she's made some awesome progress from how she was when I first got her. I've even gotten her to stop trying to pull the keyboard keys off my laptop.

Akimi's become a much sweeter bird since I first got her. She used to be a little screaming terror, but she's getting a little more affectionate every day. Now she's a sweetie with a little bit of sassitude. She loves getting scritches and cuddles from me now, and is intermittently tolerant of my brother. She doesn't really like him that much, and he's wary of her - He calls her a "Sentient Dagger of the Wind".

She still screams and contact calls a lot, but no where near as incessantly as she used to, and is learning to use a microwave beep as a contact call instead of shrieking. She still bites, but she hasn't drawn blood from me in weeks. She bites Gavin a lot, but I haven't heard reports of bleeding from him recently either. The main thing is, she's currently a one-person bird, but she's nice enough to my brother on occasion, which leads me to believe that with patience and socialization, she can learn to enjoy the company of people other than me now and then. She can also be kind of territorial... we're working on that, but it's going to take time. She also gets cranky when it's too hot (no A/C in our apartment, but it's a basement and gets pretty good airflow, so it's not too bad) but she usually mellows out when I give her frozen fruit, and she always has access to water.

I want her to learn to accept other people, but I need other people to work with me, which makes it harder if the people closest to me refuse to take my advice on how to start building a bond with her. All I can say is that if they don't want to take the time to try the techniques I suggest to prevent her from biting or screaming at them, then they shouldn't complain so much when she does just that. She's a bird, not a dog. I can't change her nature (and I don't want to) - I can only compromise with it.

[Wolf]

I don't worry about other people anymore, when it comes to my birds. I used to be concerned about socializing them with others, but I don't have that many people over anyway. For those that might come over, I tell them that I have birds in the house that may or may not be out of their cages. If they are out then to just ignore them but to be aware that a bird may fly over to them and land on them and to just stay calm and I will remove the bird. I tell them that they are pretty good, but they are wild animals and may bite if they make a sudden move or reach for them. I also tell them that if they want me to leave the bird on them that I will but it is on them if they get bitten.
Since I quit worrying about it, my birds are more relaxed around strangers and are less likely to bite.

[Saerphe]

My Dad has a degree in biology and grew up on a farm, so I was mostly shocked that he would ever suggest such things, even in jest. At this point I'm not even angry anymore. Just very disappointed.

My main concern is with potential future roommates I might have to split an apartment with. This summer it's been my brother and I, and though he's wary of her (been bitten a few too many times) he's been relatively okay about it. I have a friend I'd love to room with at some point, but I have to get a job first. I'll be moving back in with my parents (hopefully for a very short time) after my summer contract is up, so it'd be nice if they could at least try to get along with her. We're going home for a visit this coming weekend, so hopefully that'll give her a chance to acclimate to the different setting for a little while before we move back.

The good news is, she's never actually flown at anyone to attack them, so she's not actually that aggressive - she just doesn't trust strangers in her territory. She makes some bluffing displays and chatters a bit, but that's about it. All of that agitation could be pretty easily worked through if my Dad would just listen to my instructions, but since he refuses we've basically hit a brick wall

Also, the way my Dad was acting towards her was, quite frankly, kind of asking for it. Right after he got bit, I returned Akimi to her cage, and once I'd gone back over to the table to keep conversing with my family, he went over, loomed over her while she was shut in her cage, and told her in a fairly loud, firm voice "If you ever bite me again, I'll wring your neck". When I told him not to do that he just said "It's not like she understands what I'm saying, she's just a bird."

I went on to explain to him that she might not understand what he's saying with his words, but she sure as hell understands his body language, and he just said that if she really understood then she would be afraid instead of aggressive. Oh right, because fear never translates into aggression ever. And also, WTF? Where does he get off trying to intimidate my bird and use fear as a punishment because she gave him a nip? The way he kept carrying on about it made him seem more like a bully with a glass jaw, than a strong, dominant adult human. I get bites at least that bad on a regular basis, and he didn't even bleed, so calling it a bite is generous by most of our standards here in the forum.

If nothing else, he should understand that I'm the one who lays down the boundaries for my bird, not him, and that I understand my bird's communication and needs better than he does.

I'd really like to be able to take that more relaxed approach of yours though, Wolf. I think I'll probably try to work with that model when I introduce her to other people in my family who understand just how well I know my own bird, and who will listen when I give them instructions.

[Wolf]

It is precisely because of other people's attitudes that I adopted my current attitude about it. Their attitudes of dominance, and it is just a bird and such kept me on edge when they were around and my birds pick this up and respond to it so these same people were in danger of getting bitten because of their own attitude but even more because of mine. It pretty much assured that they would get bitten.
Parrots are credited with the intelligence of a 5 year old, scientifically. Does a 5 year old understand the words that you say ? Yes, of course they do, at least most of them. My birds talk and their speech is cognitive speech, which means that they understand and use the words correctly and in the appropriate context and times. Yes they can understand human speech.
I stop now what I am saying before I say what I should not say.

[liz]

When I got Myrtle I kept her on the opposite side of the house from my elders. Mom was bedridden so it was easy. After 2 weeks Rambo was on Mom's bed when Myrtle called out. The mean look I got from my mother is one I had never seen before. I was 60.
Living with a parent keeps you as their child. My sister who is younger had her husband and home. Mom considered her before me and I was always told "be nice to her".

[Pajarita]

Hmmm, well, Daddy is not an animal lover and there is nothing you can do about that because people are either born that way or they are not. Actually, they are not 'born' but they need to learn empathy when they are toddlers and, if this doesn't happen (and people who grew up in farms usually don't get it), they can't learn it when they are old so, if I were you, I would just forget trying to make him 'like' her because he won't. But you certainly can set the parameters in how they should deal with YOUR bird and intimidation should be one of those 'limits' where you will have to put your foot down.

Pinioning is actually the same as declawing because the 'hand' part of the wing (where the primaries come from) is amputated so what he is suggesting is not only mutilation but also a costly surgical procedure.... unless his suggestion implies just cutting off the bird's wings with a pair of scissors.

I am the same way as Wolf, I couldn't care less what people think of me but it took me many years to learn to be OK with this. One of my sons is coming over to visit with his wife, daughter and step-daughter who have never been to my house before and I already told them in no uncertain terms that I would receive them with open arms but that, in my house, there are 7 dogs, 10 cats and 50 birds and that, on occasion, they will find hair, pee, poop and vomit around, that the dogs sleep on the beds, the cats on the sofas, and that the birds fly all over the place so if any of these things is going to bother them, I will book them a nice room in a hotel. My son laughed at this and answered: "Mami, they know, I told them! And Erika (his wife) says that this is part of the attraction!"

In life, we can only do what we know/feel is right for us (as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else, of course) and hope the rest of the people accept it but, if they don't, it's their problem, not ours - and that's all you can do.

[Saerphe]

It is precisely because of other people's attitudes that I adopted my current attitude about it. Their attitudes of dominance, and it is just a bird and such kept me on edge when they were around and my birds pick this up and respond to it so these same people were in danger of getting bitten because of their own attitude but even more because of mine. It pretty much assured that they would get bitten.

Oh, I totally agree there. Our animals take their cues for how to respond to different situations from us, and they can pick up on a lot more than we can in terms of non-verbal communication. Like, I often strongly disagree with the methods Cesar Millan uses to train dogs with problem behaviours, but it really does make a difference when he points out that part of the reason the behaviour persists is because the dog picks up on the humans getting so tense and upset just from anticipating the behaviour in the first place. Our animals need us to be calm in unfamiliar or overstimulating situations in order to help them learn to be calm too.

When Dad got bit, I removed Akimi from the situation as quickly and cleanly as I could, told her "No" and "Be Gentle" and put her back into her cage, which is what I usually do when she bites (actually I usually just put her back on her cage without shutting her in, but I decided it would be better to shut her in in this case because of how much was going on in the vicinity). But apparently that wasn't enough for my dad, because he had to go over and provide his two cents. I keep trying to explain that he's only going to escalate the situation if he treats her like that, but that's only going to go so far if he won't listen to me. Of course, if I get frustrated with him around Akimi, she's only going to dislike him even more. It's kind of a vicious cycle that way. :\

Parrots are credited with the intelligence of a 5 year old, scientifically. Does a 5 year old understand the words that you say ? Yes, of course they do, at least most of them. My birds talk and their speech is cognitive speech, which means that they understand and use the words correctly and in the appropriate context and times. Yes they can understand human speech.
I stop now what I am saying before I say what I should not say.

She understands a lot more than even I give her credit for (mostly 'cause her speech isn't very clear, and I don't understand half of it right now ). She's used "C'mere" in context, and I think maybe even "Thank You". She likes to contribute to conversation with her own chatter. It's cute.

And even if she doesn't understand most of what I say to her, she's definitely very intelligent. She learns fast: it didn't actually take all that long to teach her not to chew up my keyboard, and now that I've taught her "Turn Around" every time she sees me pick up a sunflower seed treat she starts spinning in circles. She's curious too; I often see her carefully observing and seeming to contemplate the things in her environment. She was even playing with her shadow on the wall yesterday evening. <3

Living with a parent keeps you as their child. My sister who is younger had her husband and home. Mom considered her before me and I was always told "be nice to her".

That is the thing about parents. No matter how old you get, you'll always be their kid. That can be really sweet and touching and everything, but it can also sometimes mean they never really take you seriously. My mom's a lot better about this sort of thing than my dad is, which is probably at least partly why Akimi's never actually tried to go after her. Even when she gave me a good-bye hug the other night, Akimi didn't even try to lunge or get near her, which I can't say the same for my Dad. It definitely helps that Mom likes to admire her from a distance and maintains a pretty quiet and calm (if cautious) disposition around her.

Pajarita - Wow, I knew pinioning involved mutilating the bone, but I didn't know just how extensive the procedure is. Her wings are so beautiful intact, I could never bear to have so much of them cut off just to make her more convenient for house living.

And that's kind of the weird thing. Even my paternal grandparents have more empathy for animals than Dad does, and farming was their career. They like to tell stories about all their old animals (including the animals they raised for meat) and how they're more intelligent and socially complex than we give them credit for. They have certain rules when it comes to having animals in the house (mostly for practicality's sake), but they love animals and seem to enjoy hearing me talk about my bird. It seems to amuse them when she tries to contribute to our phone conversations.

[Pajarita]

That's because they are much older than your father. I always told my children that the wonderfully patient, loving woman they knew as Nana was not the same woman who raised me, that this was an old woman who was now scared of not getting into heaven There are two kinds of old people, the ones that mellow A LOT and the ones that become cantankerous maybe your grandparents are the mellowing kind and your father the cantankerous. I have gone both ways, mellower in some and more cantankerous in others