Stupid Terrible Mistake

[seagoatdeb]

I have seen posts from people who had flighted parrots with recall training and they will not always come back right away once they have been frightenedv into unplanned flight outside.. I never take mine outside unless they are in an outside cage or transported in my jacket. I would never do flight recall training outside, around here, too many predator birds that would go after parrots and it is a desert region and food can get scarce and predator's get bold.. She got her parrot back, she happened to mention it was clipped. I was trying to offer that there are all kinds of clips and this owner got the parrot back so success. I am not a fortune teller enough to say if would have been easier, if the parrot not been clipped. Fo me it's great the parrot came back, owner did great! Everytime a new member posts and people start saying they should have had free flighted I will post defiending their right to choose.

[Wolf]

No one suggested training the bird in free flight and I would not do that with any of my birds either. Recall can be taught inside one's house, it is just basically teaching your bird to come to you when you call it.
Still although I am not normally in favor of clipping a birds wings, it is a good thing to encourage people to look into the pros and cons of this practice so that they can make their own choice.

[seagoatdeb]

Yes that is my point it is good to look at all options and understand there are clips that still leave plenty of flight and it is everyone's own choice to make. This owner did what we all do from time to time and that is underestimate the danger or have the unexpected happen and got her parrot back so I am very happy for her. This has nothing to do with clipping or not but this group will often jump on a new person and say fully flighted is the only way and that things would have been better if that had been done.
So thats all I wanted to do was protect a new member from being ganged up on. Thanks for understanding Wolf. Like you there are only a few things that I feel strong about. I don't like to see people ganged up on, black and white attitudes that take away a person's free choice or make them feel censored because they have clipped parrots and don't speak up because of the attitude that showed up here once again.

[Wolf]

I feel very strongly that most birds are better off with not being clipped. I also feel very strongly in a persons right to choose and I am more likely to defend their right to choose for themselves when I don't agree with the choice they are making, such as the choice to clip or not. Just because I believe that one thing is better for the bird that another thing, it is not my intent or right to stuff my belief down someone's throat.
Pajarita believes that clipping a bird's wings is in most cases is bad for the bird, and I personally share that belief. You believe a bit differently on this matter, but you also believe that the person needs to make this choice for themselves and I share in that belief as well.

[liz]

No one suggested training the bird in free flight and I would not do that with any of my birds either. Recall can be taught inside one's house, it is just basically teaching your bird to come to you when you call it.
Still although I am not normally in favor of clipping a birds wings, it is a good thing to encourage people to look into the pros and cons of this practice so that they can make their own choice.

Recall could be as simple as using their words to have them "c'mere". If they are in another room they will look for me when I say it. If in the same room they answer and come to me.

A bird that come clipped but is allowed to grow his feathers back will mature in personality. Or even just change it's personality like a crippled kid who has learned to walk.

[Pajarita]

The problem with the premise that there are different types of clipping so one might be OK is that any clip handicaps the bird - and that's not my opinion, it's a scientific fact. There are mild clips that allow the bird to glide, sustain horizontal flight and even a bit of uplift but they would not allow the bird to attain a safe height quickly if in danger. In this particular case, the bird was clipped with, obviously, a mild clip or a harsh clip that was beginning to grow out because he was able to fly outside easily BUT once on the ground, he couldn't fly up. And that's much more dangerous than flying up to a nearby tree.

And yes, you are 100% right that birds do not always obey recall (and that's one of the main reasons why I am SOOOO against free flight) but, with recall, you have a chance while, without it, you don't. Accidents will happen and people will make mistakes so, in my personal opinion, keeping a flighted, recall-trained bird is not meant to completely eliminate the danger (nothing can do that!) but to increase the chances of getting the bird back.

As to allowing people to make their own choice... it's kind of a moot point, don't you think? Because, in the end, everybody does regardless off anybody else's opinion.

[seagoatdeb]

I think just about anyone with a tame bird is trained in recall.....outside they get afraid...and many will not respond to recall..... The ones that recall well outside have had outside flight training.

I dont believe in what you say about clips or that it is scientific Pajarita, even though i see you speak with great convition. When parrots are moulting they can still attain almost as good a flight as when not. Mild clipping does not limit them even that much often. If you can show me some scientific evidence on every clipping technique, that is taking everything into account includig mild clipping, it could change my mind, but you would have over 20 years of experience and watching different clips effect on many parrots to counter so it would have to be really good research, which I have not been shown so far. All research anyone has ever posted here was never complete with good data on all the different clips and mild clipping. Mild clipping is very under researched and due to predjudice, I am afraid it may be a long time before many are not black and white about this important issue. I would be willing to give some of what I learned out more, but since it will probably not be received well, I have not bothered too very often.

[Wolf]

And there are several ways to recall train your bird outside, the first is by using a harness or flight suit and another way would be with an outside aviary and it is very possible that renting of a large space like a gym would enable recall training indoors that could be effective outside if the bird is also taken outside at home even if they are taken outside in a cage.

When I first got Kookooloo, I took her outside without a harness or cage, depending on her bond with me and the fact that she never flew or even tried to fly. It worked well for several weeks and then she flew away. Still it worked fairly well as she circled and came back to where she was in sight of the house and I was able to recover her before a hawk saw her. I do not take her outside without a cage or harness any more, but if they get to see where they live they will likely be less afraid if they do fly and try to come home if they can. At least it appears that way to me at this time. But it is not worth testing it if one has any choice. It also plays on the fact that parrots are territorial and don't normally leave their territory.

[seagoatdeb]

Yeah, it is true that they are mostly territorial, but in times of drought or cutting down of their habitats they do move. They are very adapatable that way. Gaugan absolutely loves her outings more than any other parrot I have ever seen. She doesnt care if we are in a parkin lot or at a park she sits on the steering wheel and watches people and birds. i always get peppered with kisses for bringing her and she gets so excited when she sees a new bird or person she will spin and kiss me each time. When I say we are going outside to the yard, she understands that means in a cage in the yard, and she is happy to go. When i say we are going outside to my daughters, she is happy to go. But nothing compares to me saying we are going outside for a ride in the car, she gets so excited, she can barely contain herself with her enthusiasm. She can tell when we are going home, she recognizes the street and looks very carefully at each house to see what has changed. Sunny is happiest going next door to flock with my daughters young Conure and Meyers, he is sometimes grouchy if he thinks i am bringing him home too soon...lol

[Pajarita]

I think just about anyone with a tame bird is trained in recall.....outside they get afraid...and many will not respond to recall..... The ones that recall well outside have had outside flight training.

I dont believe in what you say about clips or that it is scientific Pajarita, even though i see you speak with great convition. When parrots are moulting they can still attain almost as good a flight as when not. Mild clipping does not limit them even that much often. If you can show me some scientific evidence on every clipping technique, that is taking everything into account includig mild clipping, it could change my mind, but you would have over 20 years of experience and watching different clips effect on many parrots to counter so it would have to be really good research, which I have not been shown so far. All research anyone has ever posted here was never complete with good data on all the different clips and mild clipping. Mild clipping is very under researched and due to predjudice, I am afraid it may be a long time before many are not black and white about this important issue. I would be willing to give some of what I learned out more, but since it will probably not be received well, I have not bothered too very often.

Oh, come on! Let's not play games, Seagoatdeb. You know very well there are no studies on different clips (we hardly have any studies on parrots, period, much less on different clips - who would pay a scientist to do such a study?!) so asking for them strikes me as a bit specious on your part. And it's not prejudice, it's a matter of not believing that we know better than nature because besides the very important fact that replacing feathers during molt is a matter of days while a clip lasts two years, parrots also don't molt laterally more than two remiges or directrices at a time so the question that begs asking is why do people think that nature was wrong about this.

Now, if you are really interested in exploring the subject objectively with what material we do have available to us, here are a few studies that prove that impairing flight has both physical and emotional consequences (there are more but these will get you started - they cover from generalities to how flight is direcly related to respiration, to how muscles start atrophying after only 40 days of non-flight, to how the flee or fight response activates stress hormones):

https://www.cagesbydesign.com/t-wingclipping.aspx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_clipping

http://www.tci-thaijo.org/index.php/tjv ... /view/9647

http://www.avianwelfare.org/issues/arti ... blems.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... s_a_Spring

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2656492?seq ... b_contents

http://www.calmclinic.com/anxiety/sympt ... ine-system

http://www.treeswallowprojects.com/cflight.html

PS You might be interested to know that in Europe and South America, clipping a bird wings is considered a sign of bad husbandry and, as such, rarely done.