the downside of breeding

[Kim S]

I know we have been discussing breeding on this forum, and I have come across one of the downsides of breeding over the past few days and I wish to share this with you.

Last april I had three breedingpairs of cockatiels in an outdoor aviary. All the couples had a clutch of eggs at that point and all was going just fine. The weather in Holland usually warms up slowly during march and april and I am actually a very late breeder. Most of my colleagues and friends start breeding in dec/jan. Anyway, during april we suddenly had a drop in temperature. From a moderate spring temperature it dropped to just above freezing at night. Within the next 10 days the temperatures soared to summer temperatures, and two weeks later we had the first heatwave of the season.
This was too much for my tiels. Two of my pairs stopped feeding their young or started feeding them nothing but water. We suspect the birds started drinking a lot themselves to cool down and, in result, feed this to their young. The babies didnt get the nutricients they needed and started to loose weight. They were just a couple of weeks old and I had no intention of taking them out and do handfeeding. I had never done that before and was very reluctant.
After a week of worrying and checking up on the nests we had to make a decision. Of the eight young in the nests, three had died. It was obvious that the other five would not survive if we did nothing. So with the help of a good friend I decided to handrear them.
All of the babies had a really really rough time. They had been without food and warmth for too long (the parents didnt just stop feeding but also left the nest too often and too long). In stead of the normal 8 to 9 weeks it takes for a handreared tiel to be self sufficient, it took me almost 12 weeks to get them al weaned. Especially Inti. She was in the worst of shapes when I got her out of the nest. It had been touch and go for more times than I could remember.
I had done a poopcheck and a general healthcheck with my vet, but she found nothing serious. Just an infection that could be treated easily which I did.

Four of the birds turned out to be really sweet well behaved birds and found a home quite easily. Inti however got left behind. I didnt really mind, she kept my Guus company till I could find a good home for her. Two weeks after she was weaned she started loosing weight. She was at a steady 85 before but started dropping dramatically to 70 in 3 days time. So I decided to handfeed her again to keep her weight up. After a week she started to feel better again and started eating the way she should be again, Her weight shot up to 95. I started looking for a new home again.
I knew by now that Inti had a problem. She hadnot pulled through the way I thought she did, and I suspect she may have gotten some liver disease or failing kidneys or something as a result of the malnutricien. I knew I could not sell her for full price, since she was a 'damaged' bird. I placed an add asking for an experienced home with people who knew how to handfeed a bird and recognise when she would need it. I decided to give her away for free to the household I knew would be taking care of her needs.

I found that home. She is a great person and she already had a tiel that wasnt really 100%. She took Inti in and took her to a vet imediately. But in the days before she picked the bird up Inti started loosing weight again. She dropped to 70 grams the day before she would have been picked up, and dropped to under 60 the day after. I had put her back on handfeeding and told the new owner as well.

She took her home and mailed me the next day. Inti was doing fine, she was eating she met the other birds and she was taken to the vet. Her poops were too dark and the vet sugested she was eating herself up since she didnt get enough food. I told her I had been handfeeding her for a couple of days before the pickup, but the new owner didnt think that necessary. Inti ate and didnt want the seringe with formula. So she didnt get any....
Now three days later Inti died. She weight 20 grams.
Her new owner is mad at me. Other people are mad at me.
I breed bad birds.
I sell bad birds.
I break peoples hearts selling sick birds....

Please tell me what I should have done otherwise? Should I have let the bird die? I couldnt have kept her, I will start my new job this week and I cant handfeed her as much as she would have needed. that was the main reason for finding her a good home.
I am reallty upset about this. I was doing the right thing, I thought. But somebody decided this is not the way to treat animals and I let her suffer?
I am really confused right now.

[bmsweb]

. . . . I had no intention of taking them out and do handfeeding. I had never done that before and was very reluctant.
After a week of worrying and checking up on the nests we had to make a decision.

If you want to leave it to nature then you should have let them die, that is what would have happened in nature. So to me the problem started with the weather but also the fact that you had "no intention of handfeeding them". These decisions need to be made well and truly before they breed.

There is no right or wrong answer, the only thing that matters is if you can live with that. When we started breeding we had an Incubator for the Eggs, Temp/Humidity controlled Brooder etc all ready to go. Nothing was going to be left to chance and if there was anything I could do to help the babies survive I was prepared to do it. We were ready to look after them from the egg stage if something were to happen to the parents. I had already hand fed conures at day 1, not ours but another breeders in preparation.

I even took one of the babies to an Avian vet because I wasn't happy with how quick the crop was emptying. It cost me $145 for a 4 week old birds visit to the VET and I had no problems with spending the money.

I don't think I've helped in any way but I know I would much rather have gone through it the way we did with all the expense etc than feel the way you do now. If you wish to breed you need to be able to do it in a way that you can live with yourself.

[Kim S]

I know. I should have made the decision earlier.
I am a person who feels that nature should be left to do whatever it does. But I was too weakhearted to just let them die. I was never put into that situation before and I always intended to let mother nature have her way. But when push came to shove I couldnt.
Maybe if I intervened earlier all the birds would have made it.

There are a lot of if's here that really bother me.

[bmsweb]

Even with everything we did things can go wrong. Mother can decide to kill all the babies. One of the young could kill all the others. Conures have been known to bite a leg off another bird and the list just goes on and on.

Mother nature isn't always that kind. Good luck with it all

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Well hindsight is always 20/20. I'm not a breeder, but I think given the decisions you made, you tried to do what was in the best interests of everyone involved, including the birds. Letting the sickly bird go, even to a good home was risky, though. I think very rarely do people really believe that things will turn out badly. And now the person is feeling upset and is lashing out, which is a pretty common way for people to respond. But I don't think you did anything WRONG. And, hey, some of the little ones survived and found good homes.

Next time, will you have hand-rearing as a backup plan in place? Or will you steel yourself to let nature be red in tooth and claw? From the exposure I've had to Dutch culture it seems more "Dutch" to do the latter... but I think many Americans would go with the former.

[pchela]

If you were upfront and told the people that the bird had known problems and would need special care then I don't think you did anything wrong. You did not charge them for the bird and I assume you told them exactly what had been happening with the bird. Why did they decide not to hand feed her?

Anyway, I really just wanted to say that I'm so sorry this happened.

[a.susz]

phela is right, the bird was free and there was an agreement that the bird would need to be hand fed. you did nothing wrong. I'm so sorry this happened to you. Just remember, even if you do everything right and are in the best interest of the birds, you will still have people that will get upset with you for the dumbest reasons. Don't take it to heart. I know it's easy to, but this is the reality of the pet trade.

[Titanius]

I just feel like this is just a big lesson on your road as a breeder. It's a life long learning experience like any other job and your patrons trust you that you gave the best care you could possibly to your birds. No matter what nature eventually has her way. I bet you might be feeling a little crumby now but give it some time.

[Kim S]

I had told the new owner up front what was happening with the bird. She knew she had to be handfed when things went downhill. I dont know why she refused to handfeed her. She said the bird didnt want the formula and she took that as a sign the bird could eat on her own. I told her at the time that I thought that was a bad idea, but she was adamant. She only had the bird for four days so I didnt have much time to 'lecture' her. And I dont want to patronize her afterwards for not feeding her. She took the bird to the vet a number of times during the four days, so she did what she thought she had to do.

I was under the impression that the bird would recover and still have a couple of years left. That was why I started looking for a household that would love her and take care of her. If I had known she only would have had a couple of days left I would not have let her go. But as been said before, hindsight is 20/20.

Thanks guys. I do feel like this has been a big lesson. I will probably not intervene again. I'll try not to anyways. We Dutch are a bit more 'grounded' about such things and believe nature will have her reasons. But that doesnt make it easy, sitting back and watching the young die.
On the other hand, and this has been said to me by a number of breeders before. What do you have to gain by handfeeding them? Chances are very high that you are raising a weak young to begin with. You are letting a bird survive that would not have made it on his own. Is that a wise decision?

[bmsweb]

I had one of the people that wanted one of our birds early because they had arranged time off work and I told them the bird wouldn't leave here until it was feeding on its own for at least 7 full days. I honestly don't think you can leave it up to them. They weren't happy so I told them I would be happy to refund their deposit and they immediately changed their mind.

I also stated up front that they needed to allow at least 1 hour with me before they could take the bird home, this in conjunction with providing them written information pack about their care etc.

Having said that I won't be producing many birds per year. I am thinking around 12 at the most so I can afford the time with each and everyone that buys one.

The thing to keep in mind is we all make mistakes and can improve every thing that we do, so long as you learn that's all we can do. Well that's my thoughts on it.