Hahns or Pionus?????!!!!

[Polly-anna97]

Hi I'm Polly, I'm new, from the UK.
I can't figure out how to post on the introductions bit, technical efficiency is not my forte, but I have never been on any kind of forum before, and am keen to observe forum etiquette, be polite etc, so this me introducing myself. Hello!

I want to use these little pictures of birds on the right, but when I put them on it just shows writing. Is that what's supposed to happen, and it shows as a picture when other people view it?

ANYWAY! Down to the nitty gritty... I last had a parrot ten years ago, she was a Hans macaw. I was very young and naive when I got her. Had done no research what so ever, knew absolutely squat about birds. Although she was not tame at all when I got her, I clicker trained her and she turned out to be an absolute joy- that elusive 'perfect bird'.

I lost her in a way that I find too painful to talk about even now. A few weeks ago I rescued a baby cockatiel that had not been weaned properly, and whose scary, alien begging noise had frightened the children in her new home, and they wanted rid of her rapido. I took her in and finished weaning her and decided to keep her. Having a bird around brought the happy memories flooding back, and I decided to get another parrot, that, although wouldn't be able to be around Bindi ( my cockatiel), would be some kind of company for each other when I went out, even just through their cages being closeish together.
I work from home so they wouldn't be left alone very much at all.

Sorry that this is so dull and rambling, but it's all sort of relevant.

Since I last owned a bird I have become waaaay more responsible and a bit more bird savvy, and also have very different views on buying birds from breeders when there are so many needy birds around.

I tried to adopt a pair of pionus ( on recommendation of the absolutely wonderful lady from the charity), but they turned out to be completely wrong for me, they needed a much more experienced owner. I was upset as I was all ready for, and excited about getting the birds, and the process had been a long one. However, while I was going through the fostering process, I did shed loads of research on pionus and fell for them hook, line and sinker. The much touted gentle, independent nature is extremely endearing to me, and I am anxious to get a look in on this amazing smell everyone keeps banging on about. I luuuurve the smell of my Bindi, and have my nose buried in her head as often as possible! dreeeeeamy! Apparently if I love this, I will be mystified by the smell of the pionus.

Anyway, to digress a little, my boyfriend in his infinite wisdom and sweetness decided what I needed was a baby bird from a very good breeder with minimal "issues", that I could train and learn from, so that I could be better equipped to give a good home to a needy, older bird later on.
He figured what could be better than another hahns, just like the perfect baby I had lost.

Without my knowledge he went ahead and put a deposit on a bird, but was too excited to keep it a secret until its arrival was imminent, as he had planned. When he told me - after more than a few cross words I hasten to add-I immediately set to researching hahns- even though I have owned one, and man am I glad I did.
According to 95% of what I've read online, these birds are blood thirsty, neurotic, needy, volatile monsters who will stop at nothing to quench their blood lust!
I have read that people do not know of a hahns owner who has not had their hands shredded, that they can give lip piercings, and that judges at shows refuse to touch them, amongst other such tales of horror. Even the charity I am a member of posted on their forum asking for the many members who had applied for the hahns, to research these birds thoroughly and seriously consider if they were able to take them on.
Whoa! This was not AT ALL my experience of my absolutely wonderful, gentle, caring, not particularly noisy, darling hahns.

Seeing as my boyfriend had put the deposit down on the bird- without even going to see it!!! I thought I would at least speak to the breeder ( they live a 12 hour round trip away). The guy turned out to be extraordinarily helpful, knowledgable and really did seem to care. I believe myself to be a very good judge of character, and just really LIKED this guy a lot. He just seemed so genuine- I know breeders are going to be a certain way so as to sell the product, but I just didn't get that vibe from him.
When I asked if he would wean my bird onto Harrisons for me, he said he does so anyway. He said he would litter and harness train the bird and teach it the basic commands.
He has a hahns in his living room with a few other birds, none of them are cage bound and stay on java trees instead. He said the bird would be used to being on one.
When I asked him- well have asked many times actually- I have bugged him quite a lot and he has always been extremely gracious and generous with his time, very patient and helpful-he has sent me lots of pics and even a video already, even though the babies are not what you would call 'lookers' at this stage- bald and chickeny!
When I asked him about the problems I have read about with aggression, cage territorial..ness, no good with children, animals, other birds, jealousy etc, when they hit maturity- no matter how well socialised etc they had been, he told me he had had no trouble at all with his seven year old, and that to the best of his knowledge neither had any of his customers- some of whom he is still in touch with- giving advice to etc after ten plus years. He even said he called round a few old customers he hadn't been in touch with to see if they had had any problems when the terrible twos had hit, and the ones that he had managed to get hold of had had none. He said that anyone can handle his hahns, and that he takes it out with its harness on, and strangers in the park can come up and pet it no problem.
I know a breeder is going to say such things to a customer, but like I said I just get SUCH a good vibe from this guy, and after all, his experience of hahns, and that of his customers were exactly the same as my own! My fist hand knowledge that this could be true could not be more perfect. Could it be possible that I happened to stumble upon the ONLY other person who had had a positive experience of hahns? I have only read three other such reports from owner online. Most odd.

I decided to look into pionus again, having got my head round the whole, buying from a breeder thing- and as my boyfriend argued when I protested about the hahns he had gone ahead with- these birds also need homes, and they may not go to a home as good as the one we can offer. He doesn't really get it, but he argues this relentlessly, and I suppose there is some truth in it.

I found a guy selling baby blue headed pionus. I spoke with him and he seems very responsible- concerned as to the suitability of the potential owner- asked a lot about how experienced I was, but overall I found him very abrupt and bordering on rude at times. Very short on patience and time, and I could feel his irritation as my questions wore on. I have to say I didn't like the guy much at all. However! I do believe his birds to be well socialised, very tame and friendly, although I do not for a moment feel as though I could ask anything of this breeder- not to wean the bird on to Harrisons or anything- a far cry from the time and effort the other guy is very happy to put in.
I have heard quite a few pionus horror stories too - relating to when they hit maturity, and about them being notoriously bad- worse than most birds at this time, and often never get any better, but I suppose there are horror stories to be told about any species, I have just read SO MUCH great stuff about pionus, and I am truly smitten. I am arranging to and see the pionus anyway, despite my reservations with the owner. These birds are much older and are soon to be fully weaned. The hahns won't be ready for visits for a good while yet.

What should I do?! Go with the wonderful breeder, who I know will be on hand to help should things go pear shaped, or just for general advice, who has had the same wonderful experience of hahns as I have, even though pretty much everything I have read about them is scary? Or do I go for a bird that I have read consistently fantastic things about, and whose personality and everything about them fits perfectly with me, but that knowing (almost), that I will get very little support/ advice from the breeder, and having an inkling that his birds will not have had as much TLC as the hahns. It's a nature/nurture thing for sure.

Woah! I seem to have written a small thesis. Sorry! How boring for you. If you've made it to the bitter end, thank you! And I would really appreciate any advice that would help me come to a decision. I know a lot will depend on what happens when I meet the birds, but let's assume I have an amazing experience with both of them- and from what Ive heard babies in general are very lovely darlings.

Thanks again, and I hope to hear from some of you soon! I am very excited to be on a forum for the first time, and one about something I am so crazy about. I can't wait to learn lots from all of your fantastic experience.

[Harpmaker]

Welcome to the forum, Polly!

I have no personal experience with either Hahn's or pionus parrots, but I know we have active members with each. I do know ALL parrots bite under stress, and that proper care and attention can curtail it. Mainly, you need to find out what causes the stress and do something else-easier said than done.

Good luck with your choice.

[Wolf]

Hi and welcome to this forum, I hope that you find it useful, informative, fun and have a great time here.
I always recommend that anyone who is serious about getting one of these wonderful creatures try to get it from a rescue as a first choice and especially for those who have less experience and my reasons are simple, first is that these are usually adult birds who are in need of homes and are less likely to have medical issues to begin with( my opinion), and because in the world of parrots when you are chosen by a rescue parrot, what you see is what you get, pretty much holds true. And you can train an adult bird just the same as you can a baby bird.
When you purchase from a breeder, you must go through puberty with this bird and you must realize that when this occurs so does a change in the birds personality, and the bird that was bonded so well to you may end up not wanting anything to do with you.
I will leave it there and wish you well regardless of which route you choose to go.

[Polly-anna97]

Hi Harpmaker! How exciting to get a reply! I have been checking every few minutes! My boyfriend said people are probably put off by the ridiculous length of my post, and that you're not meant to put crazy long posts on.

Thanks for your very sound advice, and for my first ever reply!

[Polly-anna97]

Thank you Wolf, for your excellent advice, and for your wecome!

[Pajarita]

Welcome to the forum and don't worry about posting long messages, we enjoy reading everybody's stories because it makes it much easier for us to reply.

As to which species, well, we are talking about two very different ones in terms of personality so, if I were you, this is what would make the difference to me and not the breeder's personality although, personally, I like the second breeder more than the first one. I know you said you got good vibes from him but I don't like people that are too obsequious and/or agreeable when it comes to placing birds (it's impossible for all his Hahn's to have come out without a single problem -I don't believe it for one second and that makes him suspect in my eyes). I like the abrupt, asking way too many questions about your suitability as an owner guy much better. It tells me he is not much of a people's person but cares deeply about his birds. I would much rather go with somebody who would rather lose a sale from been abrupt than an overly friendly guy who yesses me to death. Besides, breeders don't usually have very good advice because their birds have a completely different role than pet ones.

Now, I've had a Hahn's and a Noble (VERY similar species) and I've had a couple of pionus and I couldn't tell you which one I liked best but you can't go by me because I like them all. In my personal experience (very limited as you can see because one or two birds of a species doesn't really give you an accurate insight into the species but just into the individuals you happen to live with), Hahn's are more like conures (noisy, active and interactive, get in your face kind of bird) while pionus are more like amazons (laid back, independent, tend to be perch potatoes, quiet). Both are wonderful birds, just different. My Hahn's was a female (the Noble was her mate) and she was a sweet-tempered one which liked to fly to my shoulder and ride there for as long as I would let her. She was a good eater, flier and bather, did not pluck and got along with all the other birds. She had her moments but I am very respectful of their moods and wishes and, besides, all parrots have their moments so I think she was a great bird. She was a bit of a pistol but a sweet one and never gave me a single problem (her husband was the bitey one but then he was protecting her), I liked her very, very much. Both the pionus I had were older ladies (24 and 28 years old). Poor Morena (a bronze-winged) had a real bad life with lots of chronic stress, but both were quiet, non-assuming birds that preferred to perch quietly and look around more than actual interaction. They were not good fliers in the sense that they would rather not unless they had to but they both could fly very efficiently if they needed to - they were good eaters and occasional bathers. And both were very quiet birds. I like them a lot.

So, there you go, that's what I can contribute to the decision. But, like Wolf, I never recommend buying a baby from a breeder no matter how good the breeder might be (I don't believe for one second that breeders are animal lovers because, if they really loved birds, they would not be breeding them and selling them -it's akin to selling your grandchildren, for heaven's sake!). Babies always find homes, it's the ones that lost theirs that need help. Plus, buying a baby from a breeder just adds to the overpopulation problem while adopting helps to solve it and has its own drawbacks in terms of adult chemistry and health.

[Lady]

Hi Polly-anna,
Welcome to the forum. You surely don't have an easy decision and I can not assist you at all as I am new and have never owned either. There are wonderful folks here as you can already see from the answers you have received so far. I am looking forward to reading more as you post and hearing how everything works out for you.

[Wolf]

The only recommendations that I ever make in this area is to try to get a rescue bird. From that point on it is between you and the bird and I am a firm believer in letting the bird choose who it wants to be with.

[Polly-anna97]

Wow! Thanks Pajarita for taking so much time to help. I am most grateful. Your info has been extremely helpful.
And thank you lady. So nice to hear from you.
Wolf, I am very keen on the adoption/ rescue thing. One thing I wonder though, is how will I know if a bird has chosen me if it is not tame, scared and there is not a great deal of time to establish anything much. I know I had problems even getting to chat to the safe house parents of the birds I was trying to adopt.
Does anyone know of any rescues in the UK who are good at facilitating this whole choosing thing? I love the idea, and it certainly makes sense.

[Pajarita]

I don't know about the UK, I live in Northeast USA and, here in the States, there are lots and lots and lots of bird rescues all full to capacity because of the huge number of parrots that are given up all the time but there must be a directory or data base of sorts over there, too. And then, there is always the ads people post to rehome their bird (lots and lots of those over here, too).

Some rescues don't make it easy for people to adopt but, I have found that if you persevere, you will succeed.

As to how to know which bird... well, sometimes it's as obvious as the nose on your face that the bird likes you because it stares at you as soon as you walk into the room and quickly moves to perch near the side where you are -sometimes, they even hang on to the bars and promptly bend their head for you to scratch them as soon as you walk up to them (sometimes they would scratch their own head like saying: "This is what I want you to do"). The rescue people or foster parents usually have a pretty good idea of what the bird is like and are helpful with pointers -like "He likes to have his head scratched" or "He only steps up to a stick" - that kind of thing.