Expectant Alexandrine Owner in Melbourne

[Wolf]

With the route that you are going, you may or may not have some major issues to wade through when this bird goes through puberty as it is at this time that it makes a personality shift from a juvenile to an adult and develops the personality that it will retain for the rest of life. It is also at this time that it may bond to a different person than it has chosen previously.

[Pajarita]

You seem to be excellently prepared and with lots of plans all of them pointing in the right direction. My only concern is the particular species you chose. I think that, given the fact that you want a family pet and that, regardless of the extent of prior preparation/research/mental commitment, nobody really knows whether they will be good parrot keepers or not, you should go with another species. Personally, if I was in your shoes, I would go with a native one if for no other reason than it would be real easy to feed it its natural diet (I am an obsessive maniac when it comes to my parrots diets ).

There are people who rescue in Australia but they mostly run under the radar, not advertising or anything. I know one of them, he is in Adelaide.

[Holden1960]

Thanks for the feedback Paj,

One of the things I have made sure of is that if it turns out that I have made a poor desicion re: species, the breeder is happy to take the bird back.

Considering I included that I would not be chasing a refund, I just wanted to make sure the bird was given the best life possible he was quite amenable.

From what I have been able to gleen about these parrokeets, they can make excelent companion parrots provided the work and effort is put in.

As soon as we get the opportunity to actually start working with one, I will update you.

Cheers

[Pajarita]

Well, before I say what I feel about your decision, please know that I understand where you are coming from: you want to do the right thing by the bird and I applaud you for that. But I've been doing rescue for 22 years and, through my research and experience, have reached the conclusion that parrots don't belong in a human house so, to me, breeders are the opposite of a bird lover, they are animal exploiters so, returning an animal to somebody who consider it a source of profit or merchandise is not what I would call the most charitable thing one could do. Plus, I well know how traumatic it is for them to change hands so to acquire a bird thinking of returning it if it doesn't work out is like marrying somebody already contemplating divorce. Not a good prognosis for the relationship, if you know what I mean...

Having said that, I do wish you, your family and the bird all the best and hope with all sincerity that I am wrong! But, if I am not and there is anything I can do to help make things easier/better, please do not hesitate on contacting me.

[Elaihr]

Hi!

It seems like you've gotten most of your questions answered, but I just want to give you some input on the clipping-part as well, as it can't be stressed enough.. Don't let them clip your bird! I'm thinking some breeders want to clip the young birds because:

1. When clipped they can't flee and therefore seem more tame, so the customer will more likely be "satisfied" and won't return the bird. If the bird is unclipped it will require more work to get it "tame". Although it's a completely different thing, a clipped bird might seem tame but really is just unable to flee, while a non-clipped bird that is tame is most likely really tame, as it could just fly off if it wanted to... This is something I reckon could make some new owners regret their choice to get a parrot (they might've thought it would be easier than it really is), they expected the taming process to be easy while in fact, in many cases it's not. Clipping make it seem easier, but it's a kind of false tameness. Believe me, it's going to feel so much better knowing that your tame bird actually chooses to be with you (which will be the case if you don't clip it)!

2. When the bird begins their flying training they usually suck at it. Or rather, they suck at the landing part, and if you don't set up your home properly (for a bird, that is) your bird is going to try to land on a flat wall, a flat door and whatnot, or crash into objects, which will cause a lot of chaos and probably scare the new bird owner. So, wings clipped = no crashing = new owner won't be scared and feel uncomfortable = less likely they return the bird. I know it sounds weird but I do know some people who actually had this problem, they thought there was something wrong with the bird and/or just found it too uncomfortable so they simply returned it. Some tried with another species and got the same result, and some just didn't get another parrot again.

Also worth noting is, that a clipped bird may still crash and will more likely keep doing so for a longer period of time, so it really isn't very smart in that regard. What would be smart, on the other hand, would be to not clip your bird, flight train it a lot so it becomes a good flyer (and lander!) and set up many places for him/her to perch. It takes more effort but you will have a healthier parrot and the risk of him/her crashing into any precious objects (the bird getting hurt and said object ruined) will be much smaller.

There's only one answer really, to why a bird gets clipped, and that's the comfortability of us humans. A bird (unless there's some really special circumstances) never benefits from being clipped, if they did they'd be clipped naturally. Obviously, they are not.

Parrots are difficult animals to keep in good health as their needs are so different from ours (it's a lot easier for a human to figure out what a dog or cat needs as they function in more similar ways) and one of the best things you can do to prevent diseases or disorders (both physical and mental) in your bird is to let it fly. It enhances their breathing, their metabolism, their mental well being, their sociability, their confidence... Many parrots are prone to illnesses in a human environment and therefore I think it's almost our duty to do what we can to prevent as many of them from happening as possible.

I hope at least half of what I wrote is understandable, I'm currently exhausted from too much reading of boring literature, so if something doesn't add up or make sense, feel free to ask what the hell I meant

Also, to end this reply, I just wanna wish you good luck with your parrot ownership, I also briefly know a guy who breeds Alexandrines and he claims they're absolutely lovely. I don't know much about them but if you've decided it's the species for you, I hope it'll turn out great!

Best regards,
Sara, Penny & Joy

[liz]

You seem to be on top of what is needed.
The only thing that bothers me is that you have made preparations to return the kid you are adopting if you decide you don't want it.
That makes him a second hand bird and will be resold as soon as possible.

[Holden1960]

G'day guys, and thanx for the input.

The clipping issue has been playing terribly on my mind. I have recently finished reading Michael's book along with a number of articles about the importance of flight to a bird's overall physical and mental state.

To this end there has been a development...The original breeder I have been dealing with was quite insistent that he supply me with a clipped bird, so I have found another breeder who is happy to supply an unclipped bird.

I have also been discussing the challenges we may face and developing contingencies with the family, and I am quite confident that returning the bird will be one that we will not have to consider. I have currently got the kids reading Michael's book as well as helping to develop a list of the things we need to do around the house to "parrot proof" it and get cracking. My youngest son is becoming quite annoying about when the parrot when be coming home, I have made him learn a whole bunch of stuff and he is chomping at the bit to put it into practice.

I have been quite surprised, I knew they would enjoy shopping for toys and assembling a cage, but they both are commtted to the more boring tasks like packing away all those things that could be knocked over by the bird when it tries to fly around. Even though they have no idea when it will be arriving, but they understand that it is important that the house is prepared for its arrival so it can have a calm transition into our family.

Will keep you all posted.

[Pajarita]

Well, both good news take a huge load off my mind. Thank you for considering our points, doing more research and arriving at -what I consider- such good decisions.

Just one more point. Do not just read Michael's book. He is only one opinion and based on two pois which are both still very young (poicephalus and psittaculas are vastly different). I am not saying his opinion is not worthy, it is!- what I am saying is that you should also inform yourself of some different techniques and opinions from a couple of good avian behaviorists (training is good but behaviorists cover more than just training). I recommend Barbara Heidenreich and Lara Joseph. I don't agree with EVERYTHING they say but they represent a different approach.

See, the thing with parrots is that keeping them as pets is actually a fad in its infancy. It only started about 20-25 years ago but it was hugely expensive to buy one then and the ones you got were either wild-caught or first or second generation offspring of wild-caught so these birds were stronger, healthier and 'mentally stronger' (I don't know how else to put it). They were very different from the birds we get nowadays which are 5th, 10th or 20th generation from the wild-caught. These birds are, genetically speaking, vastly inferior copies of copies of copies of the original and they have medical and psychological problems the original birds never had. Most of these original birds did not last at all (there was a British saying: 'Sick as a parrot' meaning sad, depressed and unwell in general) or, the lucky few that ended up in better homes lasted much longer than any bird we might breed today. Why? Because we knew NOTHING about them! We have learned a lot in the last 10-15 years or so but what we know is just a minute part of what we need to know (we don't even know what their nutrition requirements are!) so it's imperative for every parrot keeper (I don't like to use the word 'owner' with sentient beings, I personally prefer the word 'guardian' but use 'keeper' as a compromise to the people that regard them as mere 'pets' instead of companions) to do an in-depth research and that means learning from different sources. Why different sources? Because most of the stuff we know nowadays is based on guesses. For example, Michael and lots of other people believe that socializing parrots with lots of people when they are babies is the right way to go but there are lots of other people that believe that baby parrots should not be exposed to strangers because it's stressful to them. Who is right? Nobody really knows for the simple reason that the proponents of this early socialization all started recently so we don't have a single long-term example to go by (let me know if you want me to elaborate on this point). Everybody sounds as if they know what they are talking about but you will find that practically every single piece of information you might find out there related to parrot husbandry is controversial - pellets are good/pellets are bad - clipping is good/clipping is bad - solar light schedule or human light schedule? - one parrot or a pair? - etc, etc. Even details like perches, toys or whether you offer water in a bottle or a bowl is a source of polemic

So, inform yourself as much as you can from as many sources as you can but always go back to science because science is not a guess. When you learn about a scientific study, you know that the results are verifiable - when you read a field biologist report, you know this was written by a person who has the necessary training to observe objectively - when you study ornithology books, you know this is the accepted standard based on careful comparison of observations but when you read somebody's posting on a birdsite, you really do not know if this person really knows what he/she is saying or whether they have the personal, long term experience to back it - you will find a lot of people giving suggestions/advice based on their experience and it's not that their advise is not valid or well meant but unless this person has had the same species and gender raised and kept under the same conditions you have for, say, 10 years, they don't really know what they are talking about because every individual in every species is different, every species is different from the others, males behave differently from females, lone birds are not the same as paired birds, flighted don't behave the same as clipped, and even the same individual from the same species changes as he/she gets older. See what I mean? I don't mean to scare you, just to prepare you because the more informed you are, the more ready you will be to change your lifestyle completely, the more you will realize that this is a 30 year exploration commitment much, much harder than raising a child, the better it will be for the bird.

[Holden1960]

One thing I am aware of is that you don't really know what sort of adult parrot you end up with until you get there.

I have been reading everything I can find from Barbara Heidenreich to the Womachs and until such time as you start living with a parrot it is all just theory. I just hope we can start and continue with best practice to give our new family member the best quality of life possible.

I don't know if keeping parrots has become a trend over the last few decades, the species we have chosen to start with has been kept since the Romans ruled the known world. (Alexandrines are named after Alexander the Great, who apparently kept a menagerie all those years ago)

What I have been able to determine is that there has been a paradigm shift in how we train and manage our relationships with animals. From a negative reinforcement model, to positive. The best example I can give is in the "Step up" response although it is saddening to know that there are still people out there poking birds in the stomach to make them do something that they do not want to do, but do so in order to avoid pain and discomfort.

One of the things that has drawn me down this path is I have spent many years working in adult training and facilitation and from what I have gleaned many of the principals and strategies that we use in that line of work are transferable and in fact necessary when working with animals as intelligent as parrots.

I find their ability to remain aloof with a human flock after many years of co-habitation along with their seemingly equal desire to be part of the very same flock totally intriguing.

I must admit, I do not think of training as cruel when done at the bird's pace and becomes a source of reward and joy for the animal. Even us simple humans will learn to repeat behaviours that bring rewards yet may not seem totally natural. (Hence, I buy my wife flowers on occasion)

The day of arrival is certainly drawing nearer and the family is becoming more agitated by the fact that it has not yet occurred, but it is giving us all more time to prepare the house and ourselves for what is looking like being one of the greatest adventures we have undertaken together.

Thank you to each and every one of you that has contributed to this thread, it has been thought provoking and heart warming as well. The commitment to make a purchase had already been made prior to my joining this forum, but your input has helped cement our commitment to the long term physical and mental health of what I am sure is going to be a timid and scared Alexandrine chick in the very near future.

I will keep you all abreast of developments.

HARRY

[Pajarita]

Just two comments. Yes, wild animals have been stolen from the wild and kept by humans for many, many years (since 3,500 BC, to be exact) but, as you pointed out with Alexander's example, they were kept in menageries which were the precursor of zoos (the word zoo was not used until the late 1800's - I used to work in a zoo and was a zoo docent so we had to study this) and which imply aviaries where the birds lived separate from the humans, as animals live in zoos nowadays. It's a HUGE difference from the way a zoo keeps its parrots to keeping one as a pet - and that's the recent fad I was talking about. Parrots in a good zoo live a life 500 better (closer to their natural one) than the one we can give them in a human home (not that I am in favor of zoos, mind you, because I am not!).

The second one is that you will need to be prepared for the bird to regress and need handfeeding for a while (so, please, make sure you learn how to do it and have all the necessary implements for it) - but, even if he doesn't, you still need to provide it with, at least, 2 different types of soft food served fresh twice a day (so, again, please have the dishes planned out and the ingredients handy).