New With a House Full...

[Kidjohn]

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[Harpmaker]

Welcome to the forum KidJohn.

You have made enormous progress with your birds in 30 days. You must be doing something right.

I do not have bonded birds, so I will leave comments on pair husbandry to those with experience.

[Kidjohn]

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[Pajarita]

I am sorry but I don't agree with separating bonded pairs. I only do things that benefit the birds and this does not, quite the contrary, it's a source of stress and suffering (they had been together for years!). Please reconsider.

[Kidjohn]

Pajarita,
Thank You for your kind thoughts on the subject...

[Wolf]

This has the makings of a good debate due to the conflicting opinions. I am going to try to remain outside of this one and watch from the sidelines. A lot of very valuable information tend to get exchanged under the right circumstances. I know that since these birds are very dear to everyone that emotions can run high and sometimes get out of hand, lets not let that happen. please try to remain polite and don't make it personal, say tour opinions and offer documentation where applicable but lets keep it clean and have fun. Remember that this is a family site so no name calling, no profanity. Thank you.

[Pajarita]

Wolf, I have to say that I do not understand your reticence in stating your position when it comes to debates on important subjects. What purpose does it serve, exactly?

Kidjohn, you can't compare children emotions to adult parrots'. For one thing, they are not children, they are fully sexually mature individuals. For another, they are birds and children are human and, even if we were talking about fully sexually mature adult humans as well as parrots, it would not work because humans are not genetically inclined to be monogamous while these birds are and well-adjusted humans are able to rationalize emotion while, as far as I know, birds just feel. So, in reality, even when we, as humans, try to imagine how it would feel for a monogamous bird to lose its lifelong mate, we can't. We are not made the same way or have the same needs.

Now, I am afraid that, if you think that birds don't suffer emotional pain, you have been hugely misinformed. Parrots do feel emotion, my dear. And they do suffer emotionally. They mourn their dead and their MIA. Parent birds cry for days and desperately look for their babies when the breeders steal them from their nest (this has been documented in videos taken by cameras placed inside their nests). They are HUGELY empathetic to their peers (to the point that this was one of the main reasons why the Carolina Parakeet was extinct in a few years) and us (everybody who has had parrots for a while can attest to this). They mourn their dead (and I've seen this with my own two eyes) and go into depression and despair (that's why they show aberrant behaviors like feather and self mutilation). Abused ones suffer from PTSD and are treated with the same drugs as people do so, yes, the fact that they feel emotional pain is well documented. These are animals that not only mate for life, they care for their offspring even when they are the same size as they are, they help each other raise their babies, they make friendships that last a lifetime and establish familiar relationships. Mates care, love and defend their spouses to the point that they would attack a much larger animal at the risk of their own life so how could they not suffer when this mate is taken away from them? - and, in your birds case, it's even worse because they know the mate is in the house as they can hear each other but are prevented from reaching it (you have pretty much set up a daily torture for them).

As a matter of fact, it is precisely this ability to feel love that is one of the main reasons why people like them and what most people want from them! And, I might add, the reason why you separated them - so they would bond with you, right? So how can you deny they feel love when your goal was for them to love you and not each other and, if you do admit they love, how can they not feel the loss when the object of their affection is taken away from them? I am afraid that your argument is inherently flawed, my dear, because you can't have just one side of the coin, it always has two sides.

But the question that begs asking is: why did you buy a mate-bonded breeding pair if what you wanted was a pet? It would have been easier for you and infinitely kinder on the birds if you had done just that instead of separating a husband and wife that love each other and had been together for years. Doesn't it bother you even just a little bit?

[Wolf]

It serves exactly one purpose, much to my dismay, because I would love to weigh in on this one. However, as I discovered in the last one, If I say my opinion and then have to tell someone that their response is inappropriate I get accused of favoritism. I don't think that I should put myself in that position. do think, however that anyone who takes the time to read the things that I have posted in the past will know how I actually feel and while this plays out I am sure that my opinion will still come through in other posts. I gat the distinct impression that some of the new members would feel that they are being ganged up on if too many disagree with them and I feel that it is important enough that I really want both sides to speak up and present their views. You are quite capable of defending you position against however many people disagree so I know that you are not overmatched in this, I don't know this with this new person. Regardless of whether you agree, disagree or what, I don't want to lose a new member, who could be a benefit to the site.
Now, I probably would not be concerned so much with this if I could get other members to speak up on the forum, but if you look at the responses it reads almost exclusively 3 names and you and I are 2 of those. I don't understand why, with as many members as we have that no one else is speaking up, as I really think that it would make for a better and more interesting forum if they did.

[shiraartain]

Will go back up and read up on what Parjarita said in a minute, but I wanted to say, are we talking long term or short term separation? I am of the opinion that short term separation is fine (taking bird to another room for taming/training such as recall practice), but long-term separation is cruel. My cockatiel and parakeet ignored each other completely but one day I placed the keet's cage just outside the patio screen (can't remember why) and my cockatiel went crazy to the point of climbing up the screen while calling to her. They were inseparable after that.

I do think it causes the birds stress and if they are now tame, you should reunite them. While it may be true that they become tamer faster, isolating a bird from their companion is cruel.

I apologize if anything I said is repetitive

Edit: I just went back over all the posts and realized we are speaking long-term. OP, I really think you should put your birds together. While they may be more obedient towards you, their mental health is compromised. When you put them back together, their behavior will become altered, yes, but seeing as you already have such a large flock, I don't think it would hurt you too much. It would benefit the birds, while separating them causes emotional stress.Also, you said you don't see any signs of stress, but birds are animals which are made to hide their signs of illness or discontent.

Forget separating them, a bird that is alone is much more discontent as opposed to a bird living with another. I truly believe that it is in their best benefit to put them back together.
Props to you to living with all the noise though. We just got a ringneck and a quaker and their flock calls give me headaches.

Parjarita, I think people tend towards comparing them to children as to us our parrots' behavior reminds us of human toddlers. But you are correct, they are sexually mature individuals, a point which, while easy to forget, would do us all much good if we remembered it.

[Kidjohn]

Wolf
I came to this site with sincere intentions... My goal was simple, to find a site were the members shared information... I will not do battle in the lion's den for the entertainment of a few...
I don't mean to offend you, and I believe you are a person of integrity...

A difference of opinion is part of learning on any subject...
I tend to be quick to fire, and would rather be welcomed, and then step into the waters slowly...
Thank you, Wolf...
KJ

I wish there were more hours in the day for this kind of stuff...


Shiraartain,
My first post to this site and is far from being the full picture of my situation with the Sun Conures...
I am trying to learn as much as I can with these Suns before each new situations can arise...
Keeping all birds on an even keel is tough enough, but my enthusiasm lead me to acquire another breeding pair... That may very well be enough to tip the scales out of balance...
As of now I'm keeping them housed in the house with us as one large family... Our winters can often dip to -5 degrees and throughout these long months, all of the birds live inside as pets...

Untouched breeders do not respond as pets... I spent time trying to gain a better relationship so that my house might have some sort sanity during these winter months...
Besides, I like to play with all my birds...

Being New to Breeders, and somewhat new to birds in general, I am learning, and not sure if I want two pair of active breeders, or just one...
I do not intend to keep these birds alone...
That was never said or part of any equation... If it was, that was surely a mistake on my part...

Now, if at some time I was to re-home these birds, it would certainly be nice to have them easier to handle (As Pets)... Not all people want the extra hassle of breeders...

The birds that were separated are now housed near other conures, but not their mates... I would still like some time to work on their people skills...

Thank you, Shiraartain... I will reread this post....

I am trying to gain as much information as possible... And, would like the assistance of those with understanding...
If requested, I will move on...



Good Day, Parjarita ...