New With a House Full...

[liz]

I didn't say any thing about breeding. I am collecting as many throw aways as I can afford to keep.

I bought a bird for $30 that I had not seen. I could tell by the add that he was a throw away. Then I found out that the guy had another one that he said was too ugly to sell. That upset me. I paid $40 to get him. They were brought to the car in cardboard boxes. He was ugly because he was mutilated.

There are to many abused orphans out there that need homes.

[Kidjohn]

Wolf... I guessed that about you...
I have read your paragraph a few times...
I didn't sign on for agreements, but for discussion, with mutual respect...
The future is as of yet, unclear...
I have many mixed emotions with all of these birds...
We may have a few disagreements, but only a few, but it will take a discussion to bring these to the surface...
I will also do my best to make your task easy...
It is difficult for me to ask a question... Nothing comes to mind, but I am in need of a mentor... and I do not hold back...
With these thoughts in mind, I would like to stay on...



Liz,
Good Job!
I don't intend to make your life more difficult than it is... In fact, I have strong feelings for the things that you do, and I may have my own human abused bird shortly...

He is a White Eyed Conure that has an issue of feathers plucking on his chest... He has scar tissue building up and may never fully recover...
I'm not sure if I will get him, but I have hope...

I have been around animals all of my life, I have seen many of man's abuses, and if I had to choose between animals or the human race, the choice would be simple...
Luckily, I'm not given too much power...

Take Care...

[Wolf]

What about lists ? If you can make lists, perhaps you can list the things that you know about parrots vs things that you want to know more about. It is possible to generate your questions in that manner. What do you know about nutrition? Training is usually easy to come up with questions as in how do you do this or that.
Perhaps we can go back to your first post, which apparently you edited out, and look at that again. Going by memory you separated a mated pair of Sun Conures, for the purpose of hand taming them. The hand taming part is a good thing and most definitely needed. But you don't need to separate them to do this. I does take a bit more effort and patience on your part but it is not especially difficult to do without separating them. I really don't know how much you do or don't know concerning parrots, so I will tell you now that I mean no disrespect and I don't want you to think that I would talk down to you. The reason that the separation of the mated pair draws the response that it does is due to first of all the nature of these birds and secondly how deeply the people here feel about these birds. In fact, I know that some of the people care as much about your birds as they do about their own birds.
Start with the concept that these birds are extremely intelligent, then add to that intelligence the fact that they have the exact same emotions that you and I have, also they are monogamous in nature and very often mate for life baring the death of their mate. In which case they grieve the loss of their mate in much the same way that we do and every bit as intensely. When they mate bond with you or a bird of their own species they want nothing more than to spend every minute of their lives with the one they are bonded with. They do not comprehend separation as in their world the only reason for separation is death. Separation, especially in they can see or hear their mate only makes things harder for them as they don't understand why their mate won't come to them and so they grieve and suffer an ongoing anxiety as well as confusion. So if it is ever actually necessary to separate a mated pair, and off hand I can't think of a good reason to do that, it is much kinder to do it in such a manner that they can't see or hear each other.
Does this make any sense to you or help you in any manner? Again, I mean no disrespect to you as I have made many more mistakes and much worse ones than this far too often in the time that I have spent working with animals. making mistakes is part of the process and are not held against one if one learns from them.

[Wolf]

I just finished going back and reading this entire post, with the exception of the portion that you edited out. What a waste as there was valuable information lost by that action. I have seen people do this just a couple of times on forums when they get angry over not getting the response that they feel that they warrant. Other than the loss of the information that can be used to improve our understanding and responses as well as to help others coming to the site, it is really sad because it serves absolutely no logical purpose, other than to suggest that no one stroked your ego an idea supported by the number of times that you suggest that someone tell you to leave, which ain't happening. Even though some of your actions were not agreeable to most of us, we still view you as a valuable member of the forum with a lot to contribute, but we are animal people and just are not all that great at ego stroking. In our defense we do try to be polite and we try to give the most accurate and up to date information available as there are several of us who are constantly do research into all things parrot. This does not even mention the combined years of experience that is offered, bluntly and often unadorned but freely and honestly given. I don't think we should be called on to apologise for the fact that this is all given solely for the benefit of parrots and not for the human. It is the lives of the birds that we are trying to improve, because despite their high intelligence and their consistant efforts to communicate with us, humans they are more often than not ignored.
You say that you want discussion, but as soon as it is termed a debate you get flustered and skittish, just like some of the birds do when confronted with something new. But please tell me other than the label, what difference is there in a debate, discussion, or argument, because I don't see any difference. And if we don't debate or discuss or argue our differences in opinions and viewpoints where and when and more importantly how is there any learning taking place?
I am sorry that this comes out here in this particular post, because this applies to many more people than just you, although your responses got me into considering these thing again, and I think about this type of thing a lot and have used it to try and
change how I put things so that they will be more readily received, even though I often don't do the best job of this, I am at the very least trying to accommodate the majority of people without compromising the validity of the information.
Just my thoughts, no one elses.

[liz]

Kidjohn, I took in two budgies who were in desperate condition. She was also a plucker. I guess I had them for about 6 months. In that time I increased their diet from just plane seed to a variety of foods. (Before Pajarita got on me about what I was feeding.) They became fun to watch and be with though I did not start to get them used to hands. She continued to pluck and I did not know what else to do.
Do you see the two budgies listed with Wolf's birds? Yes, this group is so tight with each other and more concerned about the birds than themselves that Wolf took them. Wolf didn't need two budgies but they needed him.
To me this forum feels like a neighborhood. You would yell to a neighbor to get her kid out of the street or your kid is eating bugs. You would not say I hope you are not offended by what I tell you or don't take this the wrong way or I don't want you to think that I am telling you what to do...

Let's stop the touchy feely sh.t and get back to caring for our birds. I don't have time to read long posts with no bird info in it because someone was thin skinned. When your neighbor yells that your kid is eating rocks deal with it.

Wolf, count your birds again. You have the wrong number in your info.

[Pajarita]

Wolf, he bought two pairs of breeding sun conures, not one. This was six months ago. He separated them (but kept them within hearing of each other -impossible not to in the same house) in order to hand-tame them because he 'likes to play with his pets' but, in my personal experience with ex-breeders and going by everything I have experienced and read about the hand-taming process, the only way you can do this is through flooding and/or restricting food because no bird-imprinted bird that has been mated and breeding for 8 years without physical interaction with a human (it would impair and/or endanger the breeding and these birds obviously came from a breeder and not a pet owner) will come to a human of its own free will in such a short period of time (they have been doing this for a month so, in reality, the process took only 5 months -something that, sometimes, doesn't even happen with birds that have been pets all along). He is now thinking of getting rid of one pair and doesn't know whether he is going to put the pair he will keep together in the spring for breeding. This is what he said on his first posting (I have a very good memory).

The thing about breeding parrots (actually, all birds) is that, regardless of whether you agree with it or not, it's also something that you cannot learn from the internet or 'learn as you go', no matter how explicit the written instructions are or how many questions you ask. You need to have a mentor and that means somebody first showing you how it's done for a couple of seasons (you looking over his/her shoulder) and then him/her supervising/monitoring what you do (him/her looking over your shoulder) because it's not only a matter of physiology/medical knowledge (and I am talking endocrine system, reproduction process, diseases and deficiencies symptoms, etc), what you feed them, what type of nest, environmental conditions (light, humidity, temperature, etc.), it's also a matter of having the experience to judge whether the birds are in top breeding condition, if they are well mated, recognize aberrant behaviors, symptoms, problems, etc. This requires you seeing with your own eyes how EVERYTHING 'looks' when it's just right so you can recognize the 'wrongs'. Otherwise, you are endangering the babies and the parents.

[Wolf]

I am aware of all of the things that you have stated and agree with the validity of all of this that you have said. However, it is my opinion that one has to start the learning process somewhere and while learning as much as possible from study and research will never replace the necessary hands on experience provided by working with an experienced breeder it can help the process along and it can also provide the much needed background to tell if a potential mentor is any good or not. You simply can not master feeding techniques or first hand experience of observing behavior for indicators of illness or other potential problem from a book or online, but you can learn about some of what to look for and something about the proper way to address it.
I know that the process of hand taming a mated pair takes much longer than an unmated pair and that this process only takes even more time with a breeding pair that are unaccustomed to being handled, a lot longer. I am not agreeing with the way that he approached the situation, I did say however that he can hand tame them without separating them but it would take him a lot more work and patience.
Despite all that I have learned about parrots through actual experience and through research, I would not attempt to start breeding parrots, even if circumstances were such that it would be a good thing to do, simply because I don't know enough and have not had the much needed practical training that is needed to do it correctly. Even with this handicap, I can learn about it and the techniques required, just in case of an emergency situation arising.

[Pajarita]

Oh, yes, indeed! It's not only hands-on, it's also reading, taking notes, etc and all that can be done without actually been there or even having birds. But, it's like doctors, first they study and take exams and then they practice under an experienced doctor before they can do it on their own. My personal doctor is a professor and always has a 'student' learning from him and he always uses me because I had a very rare systemic fungal infection which sent me to the hospital for 10 days and he makes me tell the whole story to them so they could learn from an actual patient -the doctors that treated me had learned about it from books but had never seen an actual case. I also always allow them to draw my blood because they need to practice on people to get good at it and not just an orange...

[Kidjohn]

The post prior to yours is filled with misinformation pertaining to the birds involved, and what was done...
There is no way to move ahead without correction of this post, and I will not waste my time with constant rewriting material for an individual who seems to be doing nothing but creating stumbling stones.

I am truly Sorry, Wolf... I am Done...

Have a Good Day...

[Wolf]

This is why editing out your first post was a mistake, or at least one of my reasons. When forced to rely on memory instead of what was actually there, mistakes and misunderstandings are bound to occur. If you don't like what a person has to say you can elect to not respond to their postings. So you see there is no reason to go away , unless that is what you wish to do. I think that you leaving this soon is a mistake, but it is your choice to make.