New With a House Full...

[Kidjohn]

So you see there is no reason to go away , unless that is what you wish to do. I think that you leaving this soon is a mistake, but it is your choice to make.

I'm sure that you were fairly good at starting colts, and getting a positive response...
After digging a bit deeper, and hearing your thoughts, I feel that staying might be my better choice...

Both pairs of Sun Conures were bought a couple months apart... Without my full understanding of what I was getting into...
My Nanday, and Green Cheek are pets, but the Suns are in a class all their own...
The pairs are different in regards to their personalities, and body size...
Those that I have separated, and worked toward taming are the smaller, and the more vocal of the two...

As time has gone by I have found that I didn't have enough room for housing two Breeder pairs throughout the winter...
They cannot be housed near to each other, and I don't have enough room to separate them far enough for everyone's satisfaction...
I guess that most breeders live in the warmer climates of the country, and are able to house outside year around...
Whatever... This is what I am dealing with...

With much thought I come to the conclusion that it would be best to tame the older, more verbal and more aggressive pair, and sell them as pets...
I felt that this was a better option for the birds...
This paragraph has also come under my own scrutiny...
After the basic taming, I have found that the male is a sweet bird who is doing will with the company of the Nanday, and the female is a total sweet heart, and lover-bug... I wish they all were as sweet as her... The female is sharing space with the Green Cheek...
I try to give both of these birds extra attention throughout the day to help alter their patterns in life...
I am finding that I'm reluctant to sell them...

I am going to Skip Over to the first pair of Sun Conures...

This pair is coming into their 4 and 4½ year...
They were started as pets, and put together as breeders...
I was told that they had one successful baby in there 2-year-old year...

I felt that raising a clutch would pay for my initial investment... Not actually wanting to be a breeder, but wanting the pet...
Things can snowball, and then you find yourself scrabbling to catch up...

I have spent time learning of Baby food, food temperature, feed from babies left to right, warnings of dehydration, housing baby at the proper temperature/humidity ... The list of things is long, and many things I want to know...
It is such an immense endeavor, But it is do-able …

I understand your reasons for Not having Breeders... I agree, but still People have the right to want/learn/do/enjoy all of God's Creation...
I have a big responsibility as a steward of his creation...

So, I Given you my First … Of Many???
You are on your own with my spelling and word usage...

KJ

[liz]

LOL If they can figure out what I was trying to spell they can read anything. I have to be the worst.

Before I knew any better my cockatiels made nests and hatch babies. I gave them scrambled eggs, bread and other soft foods that would be easy to eat and regurgitate. I never took the babies away from their parent. They fed each others babies and Lemone', who never seemed to find the right place on Twinkle, was more than happy to help feed the babies. I didn't have any extra work but I enjoyed playing with the babies. I miss the babies but it was very hard to give them up. I not only screened the family but also visited to see what set up they had. Columbus was the last baby and the only one that year. I was so afraid that he would feel alone that I talked my last employer into taking him to advertise that they had a pet shop in the farm store. Columbus was the center of attention and loved it and I could visit him.
Why do you have to hand feed the babies if the parents will do it? They like feeding babies.

[Kidjohn]

Hi Liz...
Thanks for your light-hearted comment...

Suns are WAY Different than your Sweet Cockatiel parents...
Many times a male bird will get irritated with the babies anywhere after the chick is hatched, but more often after the 10th day to a month...
They will kill their own babies, and it is far safer to intervene in the process of raising babies...
Not all Sun Conure will allow a human to give partial assistance in raising babies... So, it puts a lot of responsibility on the owner...

I have not experienced this, but only read about it...

PS I gave them scrambled eggs, bread and other soft foods that would be easy to eat and regurgitate.
This sounds like a Great Idea...

KJ

[Wolf]

I can understand that having mated pairs can be both a blessing and a curse, but you know, many of us that have had our birds for any real length of time would love to have mates for our birds. This does not mean that we want to be breeders in any way, but it stems from our learning about our birds and knowing that their lives would be much better for having a mate. The biggest obstacle to getting them mates is the fact that they were acquired as individual birds and because of this single fact there is no way of ascertaining whether the bird that we would find for them would be acceptable to them or to the new bird as a mate. You have the advantage in this respect. The disadvantage that you face with having mated pairs is that the ones that you got were treated as breeders and not as companions and so they were not given the same attention that they would have been given as a companion bird. The thing is that although it would take considerably longer to rehabilitate them as companion birds it can be done without separating them from each other. And I am not speaking of the brief times that you might be working on training one bird apart from the other for up to an hour. The thing is that it takes a long time just hanging out with them talking to them with the occasional treat while they learn to trust you. Of course you won't get very far along with that at this time of the year as they are beginning to cycle into breeding season complete with the hormonally driven behaviors. This is true for both pairs of these birds but is primarily intended for the pair that you were considering keeping.
I don't agree with separating either of the pairs from its mate, and see no reason to separate the one pair to sell them off as companion birds when you can treat them as companion birds while they are together and if you need to sell them sell them as a bonded pair, telling the buyers of their background. So what if it takes longer to find them the right home together, that just allows you more time with them teaching them that some humans can be trusted until such time as they start acting in a sociable manner. I know that it is not the quick way nor is it the easy way, but it is the right way, and I think that you already know this.
I am of the opinion that the problems that you are facing with attempting to socialize these two pairs just serves to validate my opinion that the current methods in use with regards to breeding birds are not in the best interests of the birds themselves. I am not a breeder and understand that there are many things that I don't know but it seems to me that even as breeders that the birds would be better of being properly socialized and interacting with their humans on a daily basis and that this should also help in socializing the offspring as well, simply due to the fact that animals learn much faster that which they learn from each other. It has already been validated that baby birds that are raised in a co-parenting fashion than by any other method that is currently in use.
I am not trying to say that I have all of the answers or even that I might know more than you, because I don't know that to be true, and don't really even care about that. I am just trying to have a meaningful conversation about parrots and through this process, hopefully everybody can profit from the information that comes from it. It doesn't matter to me if we agree or not or if we end up agreeing to disagree and I am unconcerned about who may or may not agree or disagree. If they want to join in on the conversation all well and good because they may bring up things for us to discuss that we may not have realized that we should look at. At this point no one can actually put any stumbling blocks in the way because it is all just information and can only be an obstacle if we choose to look at it as such. Al any of us can actually do here on the forum is to offer our own opinions even when the opinion is backed by scientific documentation. And in those cases it is not a stumbling block but something that does need to be examined in more depth and probably will be in it own time anyway.
I know Pajarita and know that she has a lot more experience than I do and that most of what she has to say can be traced to scientific documentation. I also know that although her delivery can be a bit abrupt it is not actually intended to cause you any difficulties, because her thoughts are not actually on or about you. Her sole motivation is the birds and their well being, and personally, although I have been honest and said before that her delivery could improve, I can not fault her motivation and rarely can I fault her information about birds. She is not going to be offended if you disagree with her or if you like her or not. And yes this can be the first of many conversations that we have if we just take the time to have them.

[Wolf]

Both you and Liz posted while I was typing my last reply, I am not a fast typer.
I know that sometimes this occurs with some birds in the wild, but there is usually a good reason for it and some of the species involve will like only kill the males because it is more energy efficient for the parents to raise only the females. But this is always dependent on certain environmental factors. So in the end it is done to insure the survival of the species.
I would suspect that the male bird has a reason for doing this that makes sense if you can figure out why he does it. It would be out of character for him to kill his offspring for no reason other than he got irritated. There must be something else at play in these situations that is causing this survival mechanism to kick into play. Any Ideas?

[Kidjohn]

Wolf,
Good Post...

I am of the opinion that the problems that you are facing with attempting to socialize these two pairs just serves to validate my opinion that the current methods in use with regards to breeding birds are not in the best interests of the birds themselves.
You may be correct with this line of thought...
I have to ask myself, am I blind, or does the misunderstanding lay with the fact that some people do not have Suns that are raised as Breeders...

Throughout this last summer I spent hours seated in a lawn chair facing my first pair of birds... I talked, and talked and said nothing in particular... I fed them Graham Crackers and fruit and talked some more... At the end of summer, the male would tip his hear toward me, and held his piece... The female continued to reach through the bars with her mouth open...
But, they both did learn to come to me and take my gift, but then it was back to the position of a fight...

To rehabilitate them as companion birds it can be done without separating them from each other...
The thing is that it takes a long time just hanging out with them talking to them with the occasional treat while they learn to trust you.

Sorry, and I wish you were right, but I should live so long...
I don't mind the waiting for any little sign of acceptance, and I do that with every step of training...
Again and again we do, and do it again... Then there comes that slight indication of acceptance, and joy washes all over us, and we run to tell someone who now truly thinks that we are nuts for our excitement...
Been there, done that...
But with the line of thought that says I don't understand my bird's gentle nature, and ways of interacting with me, I'd have to say that there are many things that I do not understand, but breeder personality is not one of them...


You say that Pajarita can be a bit abrupt!
That doesn't sound like much of a problem...
I am more guarded with my own problems of hotheadedness and quick-to-fire personality traits...

I'll give it a go... As long as we are not too much alike...lol

KJ

[Kidjohn]

I have no idea why a male Sun Conure will kill his own offspring, but I have heard this more than once, so therefore I have not questioned the statement...

KJ

[Wolf]

Actually, in birds, infanticide is not as uncommon as I wish it were as it is actually very common and not just with parrots. In fact the eclectus is one of only three species that practices infanticide in favor of offspring of a particular sex. Since most of the normal factors normally setting this behavior into motion are absent, I think that if this is set into motion by normal factors that the parent bird or birds are doing this due to not being in the proper physical condition to raise their young. I offer this for consideration as it is one of the normally existing reasons for this behavior in their natural state. The only other thing that comes to my mind is that it may be caused by the current practices in use today in our breeding and raising of our parrots offspring. Thoughts?

Back to the taming issue. Thank you for the background on your attempt with your one mated pair. I am not coming from the perspective that you do or do not understand " breeder personality", gentle nature of parrots or not. Although the natural behaviors and personality traits common to the particular species of parrot does come into play, it is the goal that I am seeking to attain rather than to alter. If you stop to consider it from my perspective then the way that most breeders are treated is abusive, although I could be talking out my ____, since I am not a breeder. The pair that you were working with were starting to respond to you, based on your story of it. Perhaps not as much or how you were looking for but it was there.
I have a 15 yr. old Amazon who was locked in her cage in a separate room with 7 or 8 other parrots all of differing species except for her brother. As far as I am aware of the only personal interaction that was being done was that she was toweled and removed from her cage place on another towel where she had to remain without touching her humans or being touched by them. She apparently was not given any treats, the human male was a total control freak to the extreme and not just with the birds. The bird did learn to speak, but it is all mimicry without any real cognition involved. She was in the room and watched all of the other birds sicken and die without any medical treatment. And then she was given to me. I brought her home and cleaned the cage which had at least a half inch of old dried fecal and other matter all over it. I then waited next to her in her cage with the door wide open talking to her, singing to her while she hung upside down weaving from the top of her cage screaming nonstop ,except when she was eating for three or four months. Then the screaming began to lessen in duration. After over a year of consistent work with her she will finally come out of the cage to perch on a perch mounted on her cage and once in a while on a tree right next to the cage. Sometimes she will step up and is just now learning to touch a human hand without biting. She still runs screaming from a treat being offered to her.
Now, this is where I could be in error, because I don't have breeder birds and must draw from reading, but I really don't see much difference in her treatment prior to coming here and the way many breeders birds are treated. Again, I am drawing from what I have read and not from firsthand knowledge. If I am right in this then the normal personality of the bird is not in effect and the bird must heal mentally and emotionally before their actual personality can begin to manifest, making it a goal to attain and not something needing modification. And even two or three years is nothing as far as time is concerned in this type of healing. Which means that the time spent during the summer was just barely a beginning.
Any way I could be entirely off base on this, but it is my current theory and although I have worked extensively with abused and mistreated animals they were not parrots, Mimi is my first severely abused bird, and I have no experience with breeder birds. Any thoughts?

[Kidjohn]

All of this is interesting and there may be volumes of truth intertwined throughout these theories...
My experience with birds is far too short to compare any part of these equations...
I do agree that a birds time frame is similar to a day for a year, or in this case it would be in reverse... A year for a day...
Heck, that would be 90-years for just one summer of work...
I better pick a shorter goal... I'm not going to live that long...
I do agree with your thoughts and speculations, as far as it goes...

KJ

[Wolf]

Well parts defy description because of their intelligence, they read us better than we read ourselves especially facial expressions and they like us make quantum leaps in putting things together, they appear to have learning plateaus just like we do where we learn for a while and then it just sits there swirling about and stewing and then suddenly it comes together and all just sort of clicks into place and I have seen it happen with my birds with the result that one day they don't appear to be making any headway and the next it all came together and I ham hard pressed to catch up to them. One day you will have worked on teaching them a single word for months and they just appear to not even notice and the following day not only do they have that word down pat but 4 other words that you may have only said once or that they heard on TV.
You work for months on earning their trust to no avail and then one fine day out of the blue you see the first faint sign or even miss it and the next day they make four steps forward in trusting you. One day they are ready to take hunks of flesh out of you and the next they are insisting that you scratch their head for them. With Kiki, my Senegal it was extend her some trust and I win hers. She remove hunks of skin when she bites and she wanted to hold my finger in her beak as a sign of trust from me and when I realized it and then followed through and let her she quit biting me mostly and started trusting me.
I know that I must let them set the pace and from there I just have to be aware for what they are trying to tell me and it all come together. I have realized that a part of it is that they need to fell like they have a say in and some control over their own life.