Hello and Request for Help :)

[mikella]

Hi all,

I am so glad I found this site - I've been reading since I discovered it last night. There are some fantastic, knowledgeable people on here. Here is my intro...

I am a fellow bird lover. I've only had two previous to this guy I have now. I had a budgie growing up who lived to 8+ and a budgie that I got quite a few years later who lived 7 years (he passed away 2.5 years ago). Number 1 was from a pet store and number 2 was from a "breeder" (hmmm... haha). When I got the guy from the breeder, I thought I was doing the "better thing." And this time, when I adopted this new guy, I thought I was doing the "better thing." I wanted to take in a bird that needed a home. I sometimes struggle with the thought of keeping birds as pets - but they are so special. I missed having one in my life, so I thought adopting was the way to go. I knew that I would try my best to give a bird the best life possible as a "pet." My first birds were always flighted, had MASSIVE vocabularies, were not very hand tame, had the run of the house all day, had human company all day.

So - fast forward to now. I took in a Cinnamon Green Cheek Conure exactly 7 days ago. He is 5 years old and came from a pet store. (I say "he" because she has always suspected he is a boy, but has never been DNA sexed to be sure.) The girl who had him until now was overwhelmed with life, had lost her passion for her birds, and wanted him to have a better life. He was handled little in the last year and a half. He has been clipped his whole life and also lived his whole life in a cage with other birds (budgies and a cockatiel). I thought this was interesting... It was always my understanding that different types should not be kept in one cage. However, his previous "owner" said that there had never been any problems and they were all quite happy co-mingling. He went through some phases of "mild" plucking after his favourite budgie pal passed away.

The first three days, he was nervous and pretty sweet. He is cuddly and loves attention. I could feel his anxiety and it broke my heart, but I did my best to reassure him and make him as comfortable as I could. On the fourth day, there was a pretty major change - he started going after first the fabric of our clothes, then any millimeter of visible skin (other than on the face, but would go for ears and neck as well). Catching a glimpse of skin irritated him so badly that he would make a point to dodge at it and BITE, or even RUN TO IT just to get a chomp. We've gotten lots of bites in the last 3 days (so far none today because I'm anticipating it now and redirecting, but it's also early in the day!). The bites cause welts, bruises, and bleed. He BITES. The day that he started getting really irritated, I noticed some interesting behaviour. I am 99% sure that he is VERY hormonal. He seems to have quite a bit of separation anxiety (which is taming down slightly), and I had to leave the house for two hours - He was chirping and calling to me and stressed out... and then he started to do this incredibly loud, bizarre call that sounded like a screeching hawk. He displayed a really bizarre posture as well, with his neck craned very low (his back had a big hunch to it, if that makes sense). It was intense. (Almost decided to skip class, but waited a couple minutes and he stopped.) I really really believe that he is hormonal and that this is mostly the cause of the frustrated random biting rampages. The first few days in particular, we let him be glued to us because we were home all day (with the best intentions - but perhaps this was not the greatest idea). From the very beginning, if we walked away from him, he would vibrate and get all skinny and low (almost reminds me of a baby bird in a way), and he would do the same as we walk towards him to get him.

Here are some specifics:
- pellet diet with some treats here and there
- I have been giving him lots of fruit - the only thing so far that he will devour, however, is apple
- I have been letting him drink some organic camomile tea
- his large cage is now kept in the bedroom right across from ours
- he has a small cage on the island in the kitchen to hang out on (trying to help him become comfortable with this by feeding him on top of it)
- I cover him at night (have been reading quite a bit about light and birds on here and need specific guidance)
- I've been letting him have 12 hours of darkness
- his cage is beside a window
- he loves baths (but I haven't done that since I read the other day about limiting baths during hormonal phases)
- he loves to find any little hole to get into or peek into (pocket, inside collar of shirt, under armpit) and loves to LEAN on you. I haven't been letting him be "squeezed in" anywhere since I started suspecting he is hormonal (as sweet as it is).
- he likes head scratches on his terms, and you can pet his back on his terms as well (but haven't been petting back since started suspecting he is hormonal).
- he is on the very tail end of a molt, with just some pin feathers around his face
- I am home most of the time

Questions:
1. Do you think I am right in thinking he is hormonal?
2. Should I cover him at night once it's dark? Will the light that comes through the blanket be enough during that critical sun-up period?
3. How exactly should I go about fixing his awake/asleep times?
4. How important is it to be QUIET after he is in the dark in the evening?
5. Is it normal for him to quiver a bit still? (not ALL the time, but he does)
6. Is it possible to have him as an only bird for now, or will he need to be with others since he was used to that?
7. Could you suggest a schedule for me to have with him? I'm trying to have him in his cage a bit more now, here and there, to help him get used to it. I should mention that this was a new cage to him.
8. Is it ok to leave his pellets in his cage for now? As I mentioned, the only fruit he will really eat a lot of as of now is apple and grapes (I've tried mango, cantaloupe, carrot both cooked and raw, sweet potato which he likes a bit, spinach, green beans, egg).
9. Is it possible to help him regain flight? I suspect that a great deal of his apparent anxiety comes from the fact that he can't fly. He wants to, you can tell. He flaps once in a while when he really wants to get something/go somewhere.
10. How long do you think it will take for his feathers to come back in? He has 5 feathers clipped from each wing. I've tried to get a good look and I checked out some diagrams online, and if I'm correct, he HAS primary feathers 9 and 10, and it's 4-8 that are clipped. He just molted.
11. He hasn't been playing with toys unless he is out with us - and even then, he's not really obsessed. Is this normal for now? I would feel much better about leaving for a couple hours here and there if I knew he would play in his cage.
12. I have noticed that there seems to be an area on the bottom of one of his long tail feathers that looks "chewed." This worries me. Just discovered it the other day, and seems to be staying the same. Any thoughts?
13. "Training" - I am very interested in target training. Could you help guide me? I don't know a ton about it. Also, should I wait to start until he's a little more settled? ALSO, pooping. I'd like to have him poop in designated/limited areas if possible. I say "poooop!" and praise him when he poops and I catch him in the act. Is this possible to do over time? How would I go about doing this?
14. What exactly should I do when he bites?

Basically, I NEED YOUR HELP. I need specific instructions, details, anything you can think of that may help me to know/do. He is a sweet little guy and I want to do my best to help him.

THANK YOU SO SO SO MUCH in advance.

Happy to be here. I look forward to hearing back from you guys. (Please excuse any typos, I'm not re-reading.)

Take care

[liz]

Welcome to the forum.

9. It sounds like he wants to fly. Give him every opportunity to be out of cage. Dance with him to motivate him to take off. Yes he will crash land.

My Rambo does not fly so I help him while he is aimed at the sofa.
I don't remember how long it took Myrtles feathers to grow back but she tested them while they were growing. She would jump off the top of her cage and stay airborne as long as she could before landing. At that time she was still scared of me but would walk to me and climb up my body to my shoulder so I could transport her back to the top of her cage.

There is nothing happier than a bird in flight. Unflighted birds are scared and are basically being cheated out of what should be natural to them.

It sounds like he is doing good. Just keep up the love and respect.

[Pajarita]

Questions:
1. Do you think I am right in thinking he is hormonal?
2. Should I cover him at night once it's dark? Will the light that comes through the blanket be enough during that critical sun-up period?
3. How exactly should I go about fixing his awake/asleep times?
4. How important is it to be QUIET after he is in the dark in the evening?
5. Is it normal for him to quiver a bit still? (not ALL the time, but he does)
6. Is it possible to have him as an only bird for now, or will he need to be with others since he was used to that?
7. Could you suggest a schedule for me to have with him? I'm trying to have him in his cage a bit more now, here and there, to help him get used to it. I should mention that this was a new cage to him.
8. Is it ok to leave his pellets in his cage for now? As I mentioned, the only fruit he will really eat a lot of as of now is apple and grapes (I've tried mango, cantaloupe, carrot both cooked and raw, sweet potato which he likes a bit, spinach, green beans, egg).
9. Is it possible to help him regain flight? I suspect that a great deal of his apparent anxiety comes from the fact that he can't fly. He wants to, you can tell. He flaps once in a while when he really wants to get something/go somewhere.
10. How long do you think it will take for his feathers to come back in? He has 5 feathers clipped from each wing. I've tried to get a good look and I checked out some diagrams online, and if I'm correct, he HAS primary feathers 9 and 10, and it's 4-8 that are clipped. He just molted.
11. He hasn't been playing with toys unless he is out with us - and even then, he's not really obsessed. Is this normal for now? I would feel much better about leaving for a couple hours here and there if I knew he would play in his cage.
12. I have noticed that there seems to be an area on the bottom of one of his long tail feathers that looks "chewed." This worries me. Just discovered it the other day, and seems to be staying the same. Any thoughts?
13. "Training" - I am very interested in target training. Could you help guide me? I don't know a ton about it. Also, should I wait to start until he's a little more settled? ALSO, pooping. I'd like to have him poop in designated/limited areas if possible. I say "poooop!" and praise him when he poops and I catch him in the act. Is this possible to do over time? How would I go about doing this?

Welcome to the forum and thank you for adopting instead of buying!

Now, on to your questions:

1. I don't know what kind of light schedule or diet he was before but, if he is still molting right now, his endocrine system is screwed up so, yes, he could very well be hormonal.

2. If there is any type of artificial light (from another room or the street) reaching his cage at night, you should cover it but it needs to be uncovered when dawn starts and covered when it's already dark.

3. Only thing to do is just follow the sun. Uncover his cage when dawn starts and cover it when it's already dark and he is asleep. We are now in breeding season and this will not help any with his hormonal issues but you have to start sometime and it' always better to take the plunge and just do it.

4. It's best to keep things quiet but it's not necessary to be completely silent because they get used to the normal household noises at night and will, in time and when he gets used to them, actually find them comforting same as the birds in the forest find the crickets song comforting.

5. It depends on the 'quivering'. They do flutter their wings, something that could also be described as 'quivering', when they do what I call the 'pretty please with sugar on top' (they lower their upper body and separating as well as very slightly curving their wings, they move them very rapidly). It's a baby food begging behavior but some adults would do it when they want something... could be food but it can also be love, attention, etc. But, if the entire body is shaking (as a mammal would do when cold), it's a sign of anxiety, nervousness, fear.

6. All social birds, especially the ones that are used to other birds company, benefit from having a companion but you can have him alone for a while until he gets used to you.

7. I like to follow their natural daily biorhythms so I let them (the ones that are in cages in human living areas) out when I uncover them, put them back in for their breakfast, let them out again until their mid-day rest and, let them out again for another two hours or so in the afternoon. The best times to interact with them is after breakfast and before dinner.

8. He should not be free-fed pellets or any other high protein food. I feed mine gloop with raw produce in the morning and a bit of a budgie seed mix for dinner. It takes time for them to start eating a large range of produce but, if you insist, it happens. Try eating in front of him and offering him a piece of yours (but not where you bit into it).

9. Yes, it is possible although it depends on how atrophied or not are his muscles and tendons.

10. If he is now finishing molt, it will be a year before he regrows half of the clipped ones but if he has 9 and 10, he has the longest ones and the ones that rotate for maneuvering so he should be able to coast without a problem and even maybe attain some horizontal flight.

11. Not all birds play with toys. Birds in the wild don't play at all and, in reality, when people say birds 'play', they are not really playing, they are either foraging or displaying some sort of aggressive or breeding behavior. Try giving him things he can chew like an unread rolled-up catalog, a cardboard box, balsa wood, dry yucca, etc.

12. I would not worry about it. I don't know of a single bird that would start barbering there.

13. I don't believing in toilet training birds, especially little ones, so I can't help you there. As to target training, there are lots and lots of stuff written by Michael about it. But I would wait until he feels comfortable with his new home and humans before I start.

[mikella]

Thank you for the replies.

In regards to being out of the cage - the first few days he was out all day, the next few days, he was in for two hours in the afternoon, and now I've been having him in and out all day - he is difficult to handle right now. He is on a MISSION to attack. I'm having a hard time managing him. (Any advice?) Basically, I will take him out and when he gets wayyy too frustrated/wound up/bitey, I put him in to quiet down, then take him out a while later. I talk to him when he's in but also let him have some peace. I have the radio on for him now.

I just don't know what to do to make it through this stage right now. I want him out with me as much as possible - but with this biting, it is nearly impossible. The first few days, no issue other than him being nervous and tiny bit nippy because of that. But this is too much. Blood and welts and bruises. Constantly.

***I will start the suggestions offered right now. But how can I muddle through this aggressive stage? How long might it take his hormones to settle down/even out after alterations are made? And any suggestions of what to do when he bites?***

It breaks my heart that it may be a year until he even has half of those flight feathers back. Ugh. I'm disappointed that she had him clipped right before I took him in. But we will get there. I hope that he will be able to build up muscle and fly. I *know* it makes him insecure, not having flight.

Couple more general questions: If in good health, how many molts per year for a Cinnamon Green Cheek Conure and is the hormonal period only typically in spring?

Thanks!!

[Wolf]

Hi and welcome to the forum. I would like to thank you for getting an older bird that needed a good home and am sorry that you must contend with the effects of poor husbandry on the part of previous owners. The good news is that you can change all of the things that are causing problems for both of you. While Green Cheeks may go through a sort of nippy period in their lives, please note that it will pass and that this species is known for its sweet and loving disposition. The primary reasons for biting in this birds case are fear and self defense, although if hormonal they will defend their territory from intruders. They go into breeding season once a year and therefore also molt only once each year, but if his endocrine system is messed up and his biological clock is in freerunning mode he could be in breeding cycle all year long and could also do a very long and slow molt all year long as well. This is very hard and painful for them and the only way to fix it is to put him on a solar light schedule just like the birds outside or on. This very likely means a bit of extra work for you as he needs to receive the light from the twilight period that happens before the sun first comes over the horizon and then again the same twilight period in the evening on through full dark and these two periods must be done without the interference from artificial lighting. The combination of these two periods are what resets the birds biological clock. This is not something that happens quickly but over the course of the year, unfortunately it is the only way to bring his system back in tune with his natural biological rhythm.
Like Pajarita, I feed all of my birds gloop in the mornings along with some fresh, raw fruit and vegetables for all day nibbling and then a limited amount of seeds for their evening meal which is removed after they go to sleep.
I understand your difficulties in letting him out for any length of time due to his current behavior, but he really does need to be out of his cage for a minimum of four hours each day and as his fear subsides and he become more accustomed to you he will want to spend more of his time on you. For now, it would be much better to gently tell him " no bite" or something to that effect and to gently move his beak aside or place him down nearby you instead of in the cage for this behavior as you do not want him to become difficult to get in his cage when you need him to go in. Spend as much time as you can with him in or out of the cage just talking to him and offering him a favored piece of fruit or vegetable for a treat. Bribery can work to your mutual benefit during this time. Also watch him and try to learn his body language as it will help you to avoid getting bitten as much.

[mikella]

Thank you! I started the solar light schedule last evening. I ended up having him on my shoulder while it was getting dark because he was really stressed in his cage as the light was fading without being covered. He squeezed under my shirt and was eventually quiet... but I had to lift him out and physically put him in his cage. Any tips for tonight? I'm assuming that wasn't the right thing to do... He was fine once he was in there though and I covered him after dark. I uncovered him at 6:50 this morning and the sun came up at 7:20-something... is that early enough to uncover? Ideally I would get him used to not being covered, but I think that there may be too much artificial light from a street light in the path by our house. How do I know if it's too much? It's not much, but it's there.

The biting: He is on a mission to tear skin. It's like he's bipolar. Out of the blue he goes into attack-mode. He could be sitting there happily and chatting then RUN down my arm and LUNGE at skin, taking a huge chomp and holding on. When you move he gets more and more mad, and will bite over and over different areas. He won't stop until you get him away. Or sometimes he will be on my wrist (which is covered by my sweater), then look down and take a huge chomp out of the back of my hand. And the same 'rage' happens. He also bites 'angrily' at our clothes which hurts. Yet he will happily take food from our hands, accept a scratch when he feels like it, and come up on our fingers (when HE'S ready, otherwise he would bite). I should say, too, that he desperately wants to be with/on us... What does this say to you? (the way he bites) I don't think he is scared, territorial, or defending himself in these instances. Am I wrong? What is going on here? It is so hard to manage him right now. I am trying to be so patient with him and keep him with me as much as possible, but it's so hard. If he wouldn't bite, I could have him on me pretty much all day.

I'm afraid that if I don't manage this properly, we won't be able to work past it.

Editing to add: I know that it's not really his fault...

[Wolf]

All of this bitey behavior, I believe is due to hormones. I don't know how long he has been hormonal but it gets to be quite painful to them and this causes then to be overly aggressive as well as to be aggressive for what appears to us to be without any reason, but that is because we can't see how much pain he may be in or know just how hormonal he actually is at the time. The best thing to do when he gets all bitey is to simply say " No Bite" and set him down close by. He will probably return pretty soon and the process will start all over again. You will get bit and it will hurt but it is not his fault, it is because of what was done to him. I spent the first year and a half getting bit by my Senegal female until I could get her system back on track, and now even though it is breeding season and she is hormonal she rarely bites me hard anymore. She was taking nearly 1/4" chunks of my flesh out with each bite and at one point I could not find a half inch spot on my hands and wrists that was not covered in scabs from the bites, it was horrible, but I knew it was not her fault. And this was with me being her favored human.
As far as the light at night goes, if you are aware of the light it is too much light.

[mikella]

Thank you. I need people to talk to right now. I can't help but think "What have I gotten myself into?"... I went back to university to finish a degree and I'm at the VERY end of it, I didn't plan on taking a bird in right now but his old owner was desperate to have him out... and I didn't expect this. She told me how sweet he was and I even saw it. He IS sweet, but is having a hard time.

I am so stressed.

I took his pellets out of his cage and put in a mixture of organic quinoa/millet/amaranth and grape/apple/banana. He is not happy about it and won't touch the grain/seed. Is there a way to wean them on to a new diet? He won't touch banana either but I thought I'd give it another try.

[Pajarita]

Diet transition: the trick is timing and presentation: If you cook the grains al dente (so they resemble seeds), mix a bit of seed into them (so he makes the connection that they are, indeed, food), take dinner out of his cage the night before, wait one hour after sunrise and then put the 'good' food in his cage (so he is good and hungry) he will start eating the seeds first, then go on to the cooked grains and, finally, he will start on the veggies (start with sweet corn, they all love it).

Aggression: I think it's a combination of hormones, anxiety and trying to protect himself. Birds don't actually start feeling 'at home' for months and months. Parrots are not adventurous animals, they don't migrate and they don't forage outside their territory so a new place means potential danger and this is where the anxiety comes in. I also think that he is, in a way, going by the old adage that offense is the best defense. I've had several parrots behave the same way when they first came to live here but they are all fine now. I suggest putting him on a strict schedule and routine meaning doing and saying the same thing every single day at the same time. This extreme consistency can be relaxed a bit once he has bonded with you and feels 100% secure in his new home but knowing what is going to happen or be said and this expectation coming to happen as he 'knew' it would goes a loooooong way toward reassuring them as well as giving them a semblance of control over their own lives, something that is usually quite lacking in pet parrots lives. Parrots are not mentally hard wired for obedience or acceptance of situations they don't feel comfortable in. In the wild, they have no bosses telling them what to do, they do as they please and, if something is not to their liking, they fly away - but pet parrots cannot and that creates a lot of stress and anxiety in them and, sometimes, this translates into aggression for the simple reason that some owner do not understand the parrot's mind and body language and treat them the way they would treat a dog with wings. So, having no other recourse to show their displeasure, they bite. But once they realize that they don't need to do this, they stop. So, try the strict schedule and, for now, don't put him on your shoulder or your hand, get yourself a table stand and using a stick for him to step up to, put him on it. The table stand should be next to you so you can talk, sing whistle and generally interact with him but wait for actual physical interaction. I think you rushed things a bit when he first came to you (I never ask a bird to step up or anything for the first two or three weeks and, then, only if the bird lets me know he wants a closer relationship) and this is the consequence. Nothing that cannot be fixed, mind you! It's only that you need to think of them as people. I mean, you would not ask a stranger to hug you or kiss you or even touch you, rightt? Well, it's the same thing with them. You need to establish a relationship first and touch later. One word of caution, parrots timetables are NOT like humans timetables so don't get impatient because everything takes longer than we think it should with them but if you are patient, persistent, consistent and loving, things will get 500 times better in time. I promise.

As to the schedule, I uncover mine at 6:30 am this time of the year so they get the full benefit for dawn but I am a real early riser so 6:45 or so should be OK. In the evening, if you turn off the lights and put his dinner in his cage when the sun is halfway down, he should have no problem falling asleep as night falls.

[mikella]

Thank you..............

I'm sitting here bleeding and crying. How pathetic.

Yes, you're absolutely right that I rushed things. I didn't realize though. I was going by what his old owner told me - I asked what she thought might comfort him (I was in contact with her a lot in the beginning), and she said being on me. So that's what we didn't from the start. And, for the first few days, he was so sweet. Likely because he was in shock. I wish I would have known that at the time. Now I feel bad.

I just had a horrible time with him, took him out because he was having a fit to be on me (I've had him out so far today a couple hours +, with only one nasty bite because I avoided any more), and this time he really went at me as I was holding a cup and had my hand up to feed him from it (he had taken some a second before). I was actually panicking. He's even lunging at me through the cage today. Yet he is so desperate to be out on me. It's sad to see.

I will take his food out tonight and start the feeding schedule properly tomorrow morning.

I'm going to do what you said and get a table stand perch and use a dowel to have him step up on asap. What should I do when he starts to run up the stick to my hand/arm? 100% he will do this. Then the stress and biting ensues, battling to get him back on the stick. I can see it now. I just need advice.

Is this table stand something my husband can make (he does carpentry)? I would get him to make it tonight when he's home if we have the proper material. What type of wood is ok?

I feel very, very stupid about assuming that this would go FAIRLY smoothly and taking him right now...