Hello and Request for Help :)

[mikella]

We've had a good morning so far. He was out for an hour and a half. He's in now eating. I mushed up the carrot in with his grains to see if that would make a difference. I think I will stick to only carrot now until he starts to give it a chance.

I'm used to budgies who would DEVOUR anything you gave them - fruits, veggies, grain of any sort, egg, of course seeds, anything... This little guy eats... Like a bird haha I'm going to purée some stuff today (fruits and veggies), but leave it chunky. See what he thinks of it. When they're not a fan of something, I know it can be because they don't realize it's food... Do they have to develop a taste for it tho? Even though their sense of taste is more minimal? Just asking because I'm wondering if having apple in there will make him like it because of the taste - or not. He likes liquids quite a bit (like he will drink the juice from a melon but not bite the melon to eat it). It seems to be half a texture thing with him. Actually, I don't know. He will not even bite raw veggies though.

He is getting more gutsy with his fluttering when he's on the floor. Makes me very excited for him. I think his whole life, since he's always been clipped, having to flutter was an anxiety thing - if he was spooked he would flutter, etc. It wouldn't have been encouraged. So I'm happy that he's starting to do it just for the hell of it when he's on the floor. And now, once in a while, he will go a couple feet! So, not just straight up all the time anymore. It is so ingrained in him to be picked up off the floor - I want him to build some confidence though. So I don't go get him when he's begging - I get him to come to me and "oooOOOooOoooo look at you!!!" get all excited for him when he does. He always does come to me.

It is very eye-opening to witness what clipping does to a bird's psyche. My other guys were confident, agile, incredibly smart little buggers. Quigley is so skittish and unsure of everything, including himself. I want him to learn that he can do things for himself. Hold food in his foot more often rather than me holding it, not beg to be picked up from the floor, cruise around and check things out. I AM noticing changes already in this. It makes me excited for how he may feel and be a year from now. I hope with all my heart that he will be able to fly eventually.

[Pajarita]

Good enough! If you feel that leaving him in his cage most of the day is the way to go, then do it. In my opinion, it will just slow the healing process because this was what his life was like before but I could be wrong.

Come on Pajarita, you are more mature than that surely?

It's not at all "leaving him in his cage most of the day" that's important, but rather to make sure that time out of the cage is a) positive and b) not stressful (not for the bird nor the human).

Of course Mikella should work towards more and more out of cage time, no one is suggesting otherwise, but personally I dont think going from cage bound to free roaming in the blink of an eye is a good approach, and especially not with aggression problems.
Your suggestion with putting the bird into the cage as punishment for biting is downright harmful for the poor birds psyche and will lead to nothing else but a resentment for the cage.

Since the previous owners pattern was to deal with biting in the following way; "Say no, blow on face, grab bird with hands and put into the cage", doing things the way you are suggesting is only going to be making things worse.

I've only told Mikella that there is an option to your "all birds in out all day in one room"-approach, one that is based on positive reinforcement and mutual respect and bonding between owner and bird through mutal enjoyment.

To deal with biting she will need a positive way of distracting the bird, creating a more fun and safe environment where biting is unnecessary. When a bite happens making a fuss about being bit isnt a good idea either. The idea is to make other behaviour than biting more fun and desirable for the parrot and thus "untrain" biting. It's tough and takes time, but it works.

Your methods and ideas might work in an environment where you have scores of birds in the same area, where the birds will be distracted all day long by each other. This is not the case for most bird owners though, something I've tried to tell you before. Your reality is not the same as everyone else's.

Regarding food and solar schedule etc, I've said to Mikella that if its feasible then your suggestions are good and since they are already implemented I would keep them. Personally I would have moved a lot slower than you suggested and gradually introduce changes to minimize stress. But done is done and long term these are good things to strive towards.

Bottom line, I believe in positive reinforcement and that its important that we work towards creating an environment where the parrot is happy, feels that it is loved and is secure in its home, isnt stressful and where we value quality time over quantity time. I try to have focus on my two birds when they are out and about, many hours everyday! Can you say the same for all your birds?

This is good reading from Michael's blog for you Pajarita that I've also sent to Mikella!
I've also linked these 4 articles from Michaels blog:
http://trainedparrot.com/Good_Behavior/
http://trainedparrot.com/index.php?bid= ... th+Parrots
http://trainedparrot.com/Bad_Rewarding/
http://trainedparrot.com/Taming/

Since when is giving one's honest opinion immature? I'll tell you what immature is - it's accusing somebody of passing her own opinion as a scientific fact without doing any prior research to see if this is true or not and, when given 15 links to different scientific studies that prove that the statement were, indeed, a proven and known fact and not a personal opinion, the accuser responds by saying he/she doesn't have time to read them! Now that's a doozy for immaturity, rif you ask me!

As to 'reality'... it's like truth. People don't know 'the' truth, they know 'a' truth and it's the same with reality. There are no actual different realities. We don't live in different dimensions. I am the same as anybody else, I have responsibilities, bills to pay, errands to run, family to take care of, infirmities/bad days/etc. Do you really think that I 'enjoy' getting up at 5 am during the summer? That I 'prefer' taking vacations separate from my husband? That I 'like' the fact that, during the winter, I can't go anywhere farther than an hour drive because I need to be home for dawn and dusk? That I 'want' to spend hours scrubbing cages, walls, floors with hands that are already deformed by arthritis and so painful that I, sometimes, need to take something to be able to sleep at night? That I 'look forward' to getting bit and that this is the reason why I take the highly aggressive birds? And not all my birds live in birdrooms, I also have parrots in human living areas and all 6 of them are out from 6 am to 7 pm with the exception of Zoey which stays in her cage for 2 hours in the am because that is the time that Codee spends on me -and we are working on that. Right this instant Isis is perching on the back of a chair next to me, Zoey is on one leg while Sweet is on the other and Codee and Pablo are together on top of one of the flight cages in the canary room, next to the kitchen where I am and with the door open so they can see and hear me.

You wanna talk about reality? Reality is that parrots should not live in cages because having been created to fly, a cage could never be a 'safe haven'. It's nothing but a jail cell and make no mistake about it. People use all kinds of euphemisms and arguments to make themselves feel good about keeping animals confined but no animal was created by nature to be confined for any period of time. That's Nature's reality.

Have you ever had any experience rescuing animals that have lived all their lives in cages? Dogs from puppy mills, for example? I have. You have two types, the one that has such a completely broken spirit and fear of humans that will not come out of its crate and, if you force it, it will squash its body to the ground as if trying to disappear into it and pee on itself from terror. And then you have the ones that bolt as soon as you open the door the merest crack and which stay as far away from you as they can and, if you try to touch them, they will bite you out of fear. They both feel fear and distrust humans, one shows it with complete submission (and those hardly ever become 'normal') while the other shows it through aggression (and those always do). Do you think that rescuers allow these dogs only an hour or two here and there outside the crate for 'quality' time with 'positive' interaction? Nope. They are allowed to come out or stay in but the crate door is ALWAYS open. The rescuers spend hours and hours just sitting on the floor as close as they can make it without stressing the dog out, talking to them and offering them treats until the animal realizes that he is now living a different 'reality'. It's the same with parrots. We steal them from their parents so they would imprint to us -not that this benefits the bird in any way, of course, it only benefits us because, this way, we can keep them in our homes. Then we sell them to whoever has the money but, most likely, not the time, infrastructure or the long-term devotion that they require. Some adjust to half a life, some don't. Some don't even get half a life, as in Quigley's case. And so the sad odyssey of a captive-bred parrot that has been betrayed by humans begins... And there is betrayal. Because when we made them imprint to us, we made a promise, a covenant, a contract, if you will. It basically said: if you love me, I'll love you. And love means giving them what they need and that, for a GCC, means been with his human all the time - but poor Quigley was left to his lonesome and confined to a cage for way too long and, in his desperation, biting was the only way he could show his despair.

Reality is perception and perception is subjective. In 'my' reality, a little abused bird's needs' take precedent over my needs and desires and that's the only difference between my and your reality (Michael's reality is another story which has no bearing here as his birds did not come to him from an abusive situation, two were babies and Santina came from a rescue). And I think it's pretty ridiculous to think that any time a bird is out of a cage is not both 'quality' time and a positive experience, and much less stressful than going back into it... especially for one that has been confined in it for Lord only knows how many years.

I defer to Mikella's decisions because it is, after all, her bird and I would not want her to do anything that will alienate her from keeping Quigley but this doesn't negate what my opinion is, CML. I hope from the bottom of my heart that whatever method Mikella chooses work REAL fast and well because I feel terribly sorry for poor Quigley... GCCs are not like grays, amazons, pionus, ekkies, tiels, budgies, plets, etc... they are not even like other conures or parakeets, they are more like cockatoos in that they need to be ON their human for them to 'feel' they have company so the quicker this is achieved, the better it will be for Quigley and the sooner the real healing and bonding will begin. It took about 2 to 3 weeks for Boca (an abused and aggressive male GCC) to stop unprovoked biting (and he was flighted!) with my method and, yes, he lived in a human area (my living room) and not in the birdroom so my 'reality' is perfectly comparable if not identical to that of Mikella and Quigley, hence my recommendation been what it was.

[cml]

Reality is perception and perception is subjective. In 'my' reality, a little abused bird's needs' take precedent over my needs and desires and that's the only difference between my and your reality

As always you fail to understand me, and instead revert to defending your own choices by racking down on others. Each to their own I guess. But to say that my reality is that my needs take precedence over my birds' is pure and utter bullcrap Pajarita. Just because we dont do things in exactly the same way as you, doesnt mean that we dont put our birds first. It's low of you to think so, but I realise that you are incapable of believing anyone but yourself fit to care for birds. The truth is, you have tons of knowledge and experience about birds, but your total lack insight and empathy for other human beings leads to you not helping most birds.

As to 'reality'... it's like truth. People don't know 'the' truth, they know 'a' truth and it's the same with reality. There are no actual different realities. We don't live in different dimensions. I am the same as anybody else, I have responsibilities, bills to pay, errands to run, family to take care of, infirmities/bad days/etc. Do you really think that I 'enjoy' getting up at 5 am during the summer? That I 'prefer' taking vacations separate from my husband? That I 'like' the fact that, during the winter, I can't go anywhere farther than an hour drive because I need to be home for dawn and dusk? That I 'want' to spend hours scrubbing cages, walls, floors with hands that are already deformed by arthritis and so painful that I, sometimes, need to take something to be able to sleep at night? That I 'look forward' to getting bit and that this is the reason why I take the highly aggressive birds? And not all my birds live in birdrooms, I also have parrots in human living areas and all 6 of them are out from 6 am to 7 pm with the exception of Zoey which stays in her cage for 2 hours in the am because that is the time that Codee spends on me -and we are working on that.

You are not the same as everyone else, and there are very few bird owners who own as many birds as you do. Most birds are alone (which I strongly disagree with, and I think this is an area where we agree on something), and their owners are not home all day as you are.

You wanna talk about reality? Reality is that parrots should not live in cages because having been created to fly, a cage could never be a 'safe haven'. It's nothing but a jail cell and make no mistake about it. People use all kinds of euphemisms and arguments to make themselves feel good about keeping animals confined but no animal was created by nature to be confined for any period of time. That's Nature's reality.

I agree, with more knowledge I've come to realise that birds make terrible pets really and that we humans cannot do good enough by them. This is why I tell everyone who thinks my parrots are cute how much work they are and that they should not get birds. The fact is though that we DO have parrots as pets, and thus need to do the very best we can to give them a good life. I strongly believe in this, and just because I dont always agree with you doesnt mean that I am wrong. Positive reinforcement works, and contrary to you I always try to think myself into the situation of the person asking for help. I cannot expect anyone to do things my way or adapt their lives as I have over the course of a day. Its a process with humans as much as with the birds. Empathy and trying to understand people will help more birds. Its not easy to deal with an aggressive bird for a new owner and preaching like you are prone to does NOT help. We've been over this what feels like a thousand times.

And by the way, I do hope you realise that your bird room is a jail cell as well unfortunatly, if only a little larger, but again, its shared between a whole lot of birds.

And I think it's pretty ridiculous to think that any time a bird is out of a cage is not both 'quality' time and a positive experience, and much less stressful than going back into it... especially for one that has been confined in it for Lord only knows how many years.

The cage should not be perceived as a bad place, and not a place for confinement. Having a bird locked into a cage all day long years on end is of course bad, why are you sounding like I am saying differently? I've said from the start that the goal is to work towards more and more out of cage time, but right now, it doesnt seem to work for Mikella? Do you think it helps being snobbish and superior? The out of cage time right now needs to be positive, both for Quigley but for Mikella and her husband too.

[Wolf]

Pajarita and cml This fight between the two of you has gone on for far too long and it is now over! I don't know how or when it began and I will not lay blame to either of you because of that, I don't care how it started but it ends right here right now. I do not want to lose either of you as you both are good people and have good information to share with the other members. I have no desire to take any further action than this, so if you must fight do it through email or through the PM service. This forum is not the place for it. I debated whether to remove these last two posts, but due to the fact that they contain some good information I will leave them for now, but stop and consider how this makes all of us look to new members and I am sure that you will agree that it is not a good thing. This is all I have to say publicly if you wish to carry this further with me then either pm or e mail me and we will discuss it but as far as on the forum this fight is over.

[mikella]

Just so you know............................ Quigley was already out for about 5-6 hours today, most of which was direct interaction with and on us (husband is home and it helps), and it's just about 5 pm........... I don't think you have the right perception of this Pajarita... With the exception of maybe an hour total, I have been in his room with him the rest of the time.

My life is literally revolving around him - to the point that the very end of my ten-year drawn-out degree is suffering big time. Not complaining. I took this on and am taking his care seriously. I'm can't keep defending myself. I shouldn't have to.

It's an 11 page thread at this point........ I obviously care a hell of a lot.

You had been such a help to me. It doesn't feel very good to be putting my whole heart into this and be judged so negatively for not having an aggressive bird out of his cage 24/7 right off the bat. Honestly, I think few people would. I'm really not so sure it's such a good idea anyways, since it causes him anxiety to be out (and especially did in the beginning). AND, the aftermath of bites causes him anxiety as well. I don't have other birds to model behaviour or help ease his mind. I am that - and I'm doing everything I can.

So, I'm done discussing this. It's of no benefit. I appreciate your help and encouragement and knowledge and tips - but very much don't appreciate undue criticism. No matter how hard anyone tries - there is no perfect type of care for birds. I'm not doing anything 'wrong.' Let's get back to what matters - Quigley.

I started posting here because I was seeing some incredible information floating around, being shared. I don't want to have to leave for a stupid b.s. reason like being belittled. It's so offensive to me. I have probably the biggest heart you could imagine. I know your reactions stem from your love and compassion for birds... but trust that other people feel that as well.

Your reactions are making me feel absolutely, horrendously AWFUL for adopting him.

I saw a bird in need and am trying desperately to give him a much much better life.

Certainly no crime.

ANYWAYS...............................

(And just so you know, again, Quigley is out again on my husband. And no, I didn't ask him. He loves him too.)

[Wolf]

Mikella, you have done no wrong and I can see how much time and effort you have devoted to this birds well being. I thank you for that and you are doing fine with your bird, all of these things take time not only to implement but for them to work and the only area that I can see that you might have been wrong was in your hope that he could make the transition from what was his life to his new life quicker than he could, but that is not really a fault as it is something that we all hope for, even when we know otherwise. Take your time and follow Quigley's lead and you will continue to do fine with him. From what I am hearing he is making excellent progress and he has you to thank for helping him through this very stressful and difficult time in his life. Rest assured that no matter how much any of us know and no matter how hard we try we all fall short on giving these birds the life they should have, all we can do is provide the best that we can and keep learning about them and improving their life when and where we can and you are certainly not being remiss in this.

[Michael]

I thnk there is nothing further to say here. I would like to encourage you to start new topics that are more specific. Excessively long questions or long threads are daunting dor new people to jump in on. I think focusing on parrot specific issues and people sharing their own experiences will benefit everyone.

[liz]

Mikella, giving someone a better life than they had can never be wrong.

I have taken in critters that I didn't even want but they needed help. So I did my best until I found someone who did want them and could give them more than I could.

[Pajarita]

Mikella, my rant was not directed at you. I think what you are doing is admirable and way above and beyond the point of duty! The truth of the matter is that I would not have blamed you one single bit if you had returned him to the woman because, the way I see it, you went into a store wanting to buy a doll, brought home a Tickle me Elmo box but, when you opened it, out came Chucky! That woman did not only neglect the poor bird, she should never have rehomed him, she should have taken him to a rescue because rehabilitating birds that turned on humans with unprovoked aggression should be done by somebody who is not only willing and able but who also knows beforehand what he/she is getting into. This does not mean you cannot do it, you can, it's that the process is HIGHLY stressful even for people who know what to expect and how to deal with it. And I know because my first rescue was aggressive and I have taken many more in since (this is a VERY common problem with parrots and one of the main reasons why they are given up) and can attest personally to the stress, frustration, impotence, etc one suffers with this type of situation - and I've had birds my entire life and have done rescue for many years so I can only imagine how difficult this is for you! And through it all, you have been a trooper of the first water... even when you were crying from his bites, you were worrying about him. You show a desire to help him and learn like few people do!

And making mistakes, changing our mind about a routine/behavior modification technique/etc and even having set-backs goes with the territory. When it comes to caring for our parrots NONE of us is doing a good job, Mikella, because NONE of us can reproduce the conditions they should live under and, even if we could, it still would not be enough because these are birds that were damaged irreparably when they were taken from their parents and hand-fed by humans! We all do the best we can and the best we can offer them is a willingness to keep on trying to improve their living conditions day after day. It's complacency believing that what we are giving them is the best that can be done that makes a bad parrot keeper. I read a saying yesterday: Doubt is the beginning of wisdom - and this is a perfect sentiment when it comes to parrots! So don't worry about not been sure if what you are doing is right, it's part of keeping a parrot. Experience helps because if you've gone through a situation very similar with the same species (and this is kind of critical because saying parrots is like saying dogs, you can't give good advice on a Great Dane behavioral problem if all you've ever had were Pomeranians!), you kind of know what works better but it doesn't mean that all birds react to the same thing the same way - they don't.

You've done a wonderful thing adopting him AND you've done an even greater thing keeping him even though he has all these problems. He will get better and I know this for a fact because I can already see what kind of owner you are so don't worry so much about things, you are on the right track and, if you need to tweak something, you will and just keep on going -just like we all do.

[mikella]

I wanted to let things breathe a bit, let some time pass and see how things went with my little guy... But I need insight. It will have to be a quick post for now.

- He is chirping pretty incessantly throughout the day, even when I sit in his room with him. The only times he will quiet down is after breakfast/supper for a short while or if he is physically on us. Problem is, he beaks and bites at clothing OBSESSIVELY and it hurtsss. He starts to settle about an hour before sundown (stops the fixated biting and rummaging). He is on a MISSION to find dark, tight areas. Thoughts? Advice?

- He has had (is having) a breakthrough.... with my husband. He is REALLY coming around with hands (mostly my husband's). He seems to love my husband. I don't know if I'm just being sensitive, or if I'm right in thinking that my husband is his fav and he really doesn't like me very much in comparison (ugh...) This is difficult for me, emotionally. I don't trust Quigley and I have to be very cautious with him. My husband doesn't have to/doesn't feel the need to. I'm I making things worse by keeping my hood up and not just riding out the beaking/nipping/biting like my husband did? He is still rough with my husband, no question, but he gives him a break compared to me. I still will get full-on bites through my clothing and on skin if he can get to it and he's irritated. My husband doesn't seem to get this anymore - just nipping and hard beaking,

- He gets 'cuddly' the hour before sundown. Lately my husband has had more quiet, relaxed time with him since I am finishing my courses and when my husband is home that means I can have quiet and do work. During the day, it's a battle with Quigley trying to be with him, not quite being able to be, he's never content, kind of damned if I do, damned if I don't right now it seems. I just can't find a 'groove' and he can't either.... We are trying. I REALLY hope that after the next week, once I can relax a bit, maybe it will help him relax too.

- Any suggestions of what to do when he is totally riled up, screaming, and I am frustrated? I KNOW that he must sense my frustration. To be very honest, I have moments when it is difficult to contain it and I will leave the room quickly or I sound frustrated............... I had to have my husband come home early the other day because I was losing my mind. He got to experience it for a little while. He lost his mind too. Until around his "supper time" when he settled and was quiet with my husband, hanging out on the bed and sharing a snack. I'm with him all day by myself, my husband gets the good-side of Quigley for the most part. Most of the day, Quigley is agitated, screaming, 'doing the dance,' and rooting around, biting through clothes like a little machine.

I would have him on me all the time if he wouldn't hurt me every second...

Just looking for thoughts.

Couple other things:
Starting to really like grains, doesn't like/won't eat beans, SLOWLY warming up to some veggies, only likes bigger seeds (won't eat any of the tiny seeds in the mix - ??), and I keep his cage door open most of the day, other than meal times. He rides on my shoulder after breakfast while I clean/tidy up the house, but the rest of the day when I have him on me/near me is a struggle - he wants nothing but my clothes (or skin).