Hello and Request for Help :)

[liz]

You have two hands. When he bites one say owe and open the other hand wide with palm toward him and tell him fly. He can't bite an open palm with fingers spread to look bigger. You would basically be shoving him off and say fly or go.
He wants to be with you so when you make him fly off it is punishment because he can't have what he want.

This is Myrtles first season. She was clingy before but this is ridiculous. She preens the hair on my neck. Plays in my hair and removes whatever I have holding it back. She clamps onto my ear lobe and flips it with her tung. She reminds me of a little two year old girl hanging on mom for attention. She doesn't want mom to do house work. She wants mom's full attention. I give her one warning that she is getting on my nerves. If she doesn't stop she gets the open hand to shove her off. It doesn't always work because she runs to the other shoulder. That is when she gets my full attention. Sometimes even taking my shirt off to make her fly. That is when she goes to pick on Rambo and make me yell at her. Any attention is better than no attention.

Rambo has a passion for cardboard boxes no matter what time of year. The first time I gave him one he squealed so loud that my mom thought I hurt him. When in season he will find boxes I forgot I had.
I am in the process of moving. All the furniture is moved and I am going through closets and packing boxes. I have found him in a few boxes and most have ben chewed on.

[Wolf]

I could easily be wrong, but I thought that I provided you with at least one link on reading your birds body language, but just in case I failed to do so try these
http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww15eii.htm
http://www.drcockatiel.com/cockatiel-in ... ior-guide/
and just as a bonus because these may contain information that might not have been mentioned that you could try to reduce the amount of biting.
http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww12eii.htm
http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww20eiv.htm

With the things that you are saying it appears to me that you may be missing out on seeing a lot of Quigley's body language which is your best chance of avoiding being bitten. I would also not allow him to perch on my shoulder until such time as he shows that he is learning to not bite you.
I know that you are having some issues with feeling guilty over not being able to just let him out to do as he wants, but you need to understand that neither one of you can be happy as long as this biting is getting in the way. It is far better in the long run for you to establish boundries for him and adhere to them. If you don't put him down and walk away for a few minutes when he bites and then just sit down where he can come to you and not rush back in to pick him up. Then he doesn't learn what you want of him, namely to quit biting. You can choose what you think is the most appropriate way to deal with the biting, but when you decide on what to do about biting then both you and your husband need to use the very same method and it must be applied consistently in order for it to work. It must be done in the same way over and over again so that he has enough time to make the connection between cause and effect. don't worry so much about making small mistakes, we all do and the bird usually gets past them quickly. Yes we need to be aware of when we make a mistake but this is not to be used to be hard on ourselves it needs to be used only to help us not repeat the mistake.
If you are nervous or excited or fearful your bird is going to pick up on these things right away and react to them. So try to make sure that you have calmed yourself down before touching him.

[mikella]

Liz, I've told you before, he can't fly.

Yes you are right, Wolf, you gave me links before, but I will look at these too, thanks. I do watch his behaviour very carefully and am getting a better feel for it - but honestly, he can be very unpredictable. I do wish I could see his eyes so I could look for pinning because that would help... His eyes are dark, so I can only see his pupils when light hits them the perfect way.

I need to sit and think very carefully about this and come up with something that makes sense. I'm going to sit down and talk with my husband tonight and see what we can figure out.

The tough part is if he is not physically on me (or my husband) he has a FIT, chirps, begs, trembles with anticipation... He is literally desperate to be on us. I don't want to cause him more anxiety than I have to. Is it even ok to let them be like this......? I don't know where the line is - how much is ok. And forget being out of his site.......... It makes me feel like I'm doing more damage than good. He DID learn quickly with the glove, but it's not WHAT I wanted him to learn. My ENTIRE approach/how I went about it was completely wrong, in hindsight... I was just excited to really give it a go...

There's the best little bird in there if I can just figure out what needs to be done to help this.

[Wolf]

Well even being able to see his eyes when he pins them can be deceptive as it could be that he is in a bad mood or it could be that he is just interested and focusing his attention on whatever caught his attention.
I would probably look for a horizontal body with the head held low either close to the same level as his back or lower, and wigs held up kind of like at half mast but not open like he was going to fly and probably his beak opening and closing. I don't actually have any conures to go by and the closest that I have is my Senegal, but I and only giving body language that all of my birds seem to share as an indicator od irritation. Pajarita and several others on the forum do have Green Cheek conures and can tell you more specifically what body language to watch for. If you have a vision problem then it is likely that you may be missing many of his signals as some of the can be rather subtle. It might be a good idea if this might be a factor to get some full spectrum lighting with a CRI of 94 or higher and with a K Temp of 5000 to 5500 and a UV A and B output of 5. The much improved lighting will be good for Quigley and may help you to see some of what you might be missing as far as his body language is concerned. I do not mean any disrespect by this suggestion, I am just trying to cover all bases as best that I can.
Is it possible that the problem is one of consistency? By this I mean that you may give in to his calling for you and go and get him when you should leave him alone to think about things a little. Or that you are using one way of teaching him to not bite and then changing in a couple of days if you don't see the results that you are looking for? I am asking this because it appears to me that he is not taking this biting thing as anything other than a game that you are playing with him. There has to be some reward for him to continue with this behavior. It could be as simple as he bites, you put him down, he yells and you come and get him. So I am suggesting that you pick one way of dealing with this and stick with it for at least two weeks. These birds are very smart and they think nothing of manipulating you to get what they want. Is he going to get upset if you put him down and walk out of the room? Yes, he is and he will call and scream for you to come and save him, but you just can't do that as it allows him to control you and the biting will continue. If you feel bad for him for being alone for a few minutes due to his biting look at your hands or stand in front of a mirror and notice how you are dressed just to protect yourself from him. After the time for being alone has passed then you can answer him when he calls but don't rush in to get him wait for the screaming to stop then go and get him if you want to.
I really wish that I had some way to watch your interaction with him so that I could see what is happening and make better suggestions, but time, distance and finances won't allow for me to come up and watch, and help you through this.

[Pajarita]

Well, for one thing, you can't expect success when trying something new the first time. I might be wrong but it seems to me that this is one of your problems. I am not talking about stressing him out, I am talking about trying again with a tweak. I don't know what kind of gloves you were wearing but I was thinking of very thin leather perfectly fitted to your hands. I have a pair in yellow which leather is so thin and supple that look almost like you have no gloves on. They could not be bulky or of such a color that the bird knows for a fact it's something that shouldn't be there. I would also NOT let him climb down my arm AT ALL until I know, for a fact, that he will no longer bite my hands.

People talk about body language and it's not that I don't agree because I do 100%, but you can't see the body language when they are on your shoulder and birds that have learned to bite all the time hardly ever display prior unless they are super angry because, to them, biting has become an every day thing and anger is no longer required for it.

I think you just have to keep at it and tweak as you go along. But you also have to get over the fear because as long as you are afraid of him, nothing will really work. Now, don't misunderstand me, I know this is easier said than done. I've been afraid of birds before and I am still afraid, in a way, of the mean amazons... maybe fear is not the right word but let's say that I don't trust them and keep my guard up all the time with them.

Are you doing the training session I recommended? How does he behave during these times? Is there a time of the day or a daily activity when he doesn't bite at all?

[liz]

[quote="mikella"]Liz, I've told you before, he can't fly.

Okay - so I forgot already!

[mikella]

Will be responding later, thanks all. Great points. And yes, I neeeeeeeeeed to remember that everything needs to be slowslowslow and change will be slow as well.

The gloves were black thin leather, tight to skin, Pajarita... Black I'm guessing is not ideal since my skin is fair.... But even so, I went about it wrong, actively trying to get him used to them. If I could do it again, I would just have them on and have him take treats with just fingers showing and done.

So much to say but will have to reply later. Thanks again.

[Pajarita]

Don't do anything out of the ordinary or the routine, just wear the gloves for, say, one hour while doing your usual and see what happens.

[mikella]

Wolf: (This is rambly, I will warn you - just picking through your posts and responding to things.) I have been trying putting him in another room on his T-stick (he can't get to me, but can go from the T-stick to the top of a small cage top we have in the kitchen - maybe this was unclear). As far as eyesight goes, I can see perfectly, I just meant that he has brown eyes, nobody would be able to see his pupils unless in direct sunlight, looking very closely. I do know that interest level affects pupils too. But it would just give me one more little thing to go by. That said, at this point, I'm really not convinced that it's me missing signals at all. He changes in a SPLIT SECOND. I haven't been giving him the opportunity to bite at all because I have had my hands totally covered until today for a few minutes (explained below). The only times he was giving me issues was if he happened to get a glimpse of my hand or I wasn't paying attention and he peeked up my sleeve, or if he was on my shoulder and he would go at my hood. Since the suggestion you and Pajarita made the other day, I haven't been having him on my shoulder, only my covered arm where I can see him, with hand up sleeve as always. As far as lighting goes, I do have proper lighting now (still looking to find a bulb that's completely ideal, but this one is close), but he doesn't get the benefit of it when he's out with us, which is a good amount of the time. To answer your question, YES, consistency is part of the problem, absolutely - because I'm STILL trying to figure out how to handle this. I still haven't found the perfect approach. I'll explain the problems I'm having below. The past couple days though, trying the "no bite, put him down, go out of sight," I don't 'give in' to his calling for me, but I do think 5 minutes is too long for him. He learned VERY quickly with the gloves (although not what I wanted him to learn, my fault...). I SO so so wish, too, that you guys could physically be here to help. I appreciate the help you're giving me so much, but it's still just so hard to figure out/handle... Nothing would compare to being here in person/seeing/etc.

Pajarita: Yes, you confirmed what I've been thinking - It's not necessarily me missing behavioural warnings... biting is just "what he does." Yes, I can tell when he's 'mad.' But honestly, he doesn't really ever get mad anymore... He's not out to kill me. He just gets irritated and wound up and he just doesn't know how to be. I've stopped putting him on my shoulder, and I've actually been leaving my hood down most of the time the last couple days, and he will stay on my arm. Your point about fear - yes. I WANT to get over this fear, and I've been thinking that the way to do it is to stop covering my hands. That is what I tried today for a while (I'll explain below). I think I NEED to stop covering my hands if I ever want to work through this, and that is fine. But I think I need to do it in a controlled way perhaps (again, see below and tell me what you think). As far as training sessions go, yes. I've been doing the training for weeks actually, since CML suggested it. A few times a day for a few minutes at a time. I have, however, started doing it before leaving him on his cage like you suggested. I try to bring him back to his cage when I know he is a bit tired or would want to eat, and he goes right in then. But the times that he doesn't, I do a short little session with the clicker/treats/chopstick (haha). He behaves fine during this - USUALLY. We had some days where he really just disliked me, and would even rather bite my fingers than take a treat. Now, he has been good. BUT, it depends how motivated he is (which is normal). Sometimes he's sluggish and doesn't really want to do it - sometimes he's running to touch the stick. But he knows very well how to do it, and I think for the most part he enjoys it BECAUSE he knows he's doing something that I want him to do/that he understands/can do. I HOPE that it is empowering to him in that way (that may sound silly, but...). Him and I still have so much to figure out about each other - at least this is something he feels confident about. As far as times of day goes - Really, it depends on the day. But he always seems very moody with me until my husband is around, late afternoon. I'm wondering if it's because we BOTH relax when he gets home. So he probably senses that my energy changes. He also can get riled up though because my husband gives him a lot of freedom, so he gets excited and worked up and gets bitey (not "angry" bitey, but very rough and just gets out of control and will bite when you disturb what he's doing if he's really in a mode). But he seems 'happy.' To answer a question of yours I missed quite a while back, he doesn't sleep in his hut, but he sleeps between the hut and the side of the cage. He must like the light pressure of it against him. I'm wondering if I should change anything for him to make this more comfortable, or make something else that he may like more (but still leave the hut in there). I could make the hut smaller inside, but I bet he would still do the same thing. He goes through it to GET to his spot beside it (Just noticed your other post about not doing anything out of the ordinary with the gloves on - Yes, I think this was my major mistake. Now, he is afraid of even the sight of the gloves which makes me feel horrible. Should I just say screw the gloves? I'm thinking so... what do you think? Part of me, however, feels like I should fix his aversion to him just so that he doesn't have that in his mind when he happens to see gloves in the future.)

Ok here's what I'm thinking...

I'm just not sure about anything I'm trying... I was sitting with him a while ago and I had my hand in view, and as soon as he caught a glimpse of it, he charged over and was nibbling then got pretty darn rough. I don't know HOW MUCH is ok initially - or if any amount is a no-no. So, I said no, got him on the T-stick and put him in the kitchen for 3 minutes. I think 5 minutes is too long for him. This exact thing repeated two more times, so then I just stopped what we were doing (all we were doing was sitting and he was on my lap with some things to chew on, but he almost always refuses to show interest to anything when he's with me - he will fiddle with things with my husband though, chew on toilet paper rolls, etc.).

I don't feel good about these "sessions."

What about either limiting "visible-hands time" to two short sessions per day and doing the "no bite, t-stick for three minutes" and the rest of the day, covered?

OR - what about starting with step up?? Now I'm wondering if maybe this may be best.... (?!) He would already be on the T-stick, if he bit, I could walk away. I know when he wants to be on me because he begs, so he would KNOW my hand was approaching for him to come be on me, he knows what he's supposed to/wants to do, I would say "up up," he would get up, and immediately get a treat if no bite. If he bit, I would walk away for 3 minutes, come back, and not immediately try again (I think this was another mistake I made. He was biting each time with the glove in view, so it was TOO much, it was nonstop T-stick).

I think, looking back, that it was a mistake to start covering my hands. Now, they are "WOAH LOOK IT'S HER HAAANDS!!!!"... ugh.

Another issue - he doesn't like the T-stick. Even though I've been using it for "good" things and clicking with a treat (as well as when I need to move him if he's bitten or been too rough). I don't know how to clear up this confusion for him. I want him to feel neutral about it... but I don't know if that's possible. This is another reason I was thinking that perhaps starting with up-up is better. It takes the T-stick out of the equation, because he would already be on a T-stand and I could walk away. Sometimes I have to press it (lightly of course) against his belly to make him step up so I can move him and I HATE doing this......... hatehatehate. It makes me feel awful. It's when he KNOWS what he's supposed to do but really doesn't want to get up on it... most of the time he just scrambles away from it and it's virtually impossible to get him unless you're looking in a mirror - then too much time passes.

And last question - How do I know how much is ok, and how much is too much when it comes to beaking/biting? I want him to be able to check out my hands if he feels the need to. But should any rough beaking be considered a bite and treated the same way? No? My husband is having this issue as well - he doesn't know how much he should tolerate. He's beaking my husband cooooonstantly, and it does hurt. He knows with me, though, that he doesn't go in my shirt or around my neck, etc. He has learned this just recently. And usually, is better with my clothes. Typically, when he goes at my clothes it's because he's grouchy and feels frustration for whatever reason, and I think he IS trying to get at what is under it. He KNOWS my hands are in there obviously. With my husband, I think it's more pure nesting-type behaviour and getting wound up.

Ok, be back later! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts about all this.

Thinking again - Maybe... better gloves (even thinner leather, light as opposed to black), and ignoring biting for a while.... Maybe it is the shock of HANDS causing it with me and he will get over it. Hmmm...

[Pajarita]

I only suggested the gloves because you seemed to be so afraid to use your bare hands around him. I've never used gloves myself, if I get bit, I get bit, show my pain by exclaiming about it, scold them ("NO! Bad, bad bird! Don't bite!") and just keep on going or make them fly off if they are on me.

Now, I keep on getting the feeling that you are not waiting long enough for any one system to work. Things don't work with parrots in a matter of days, weeks or months... sometimes it takes a couple of years - and changing horses midstream as you are doing is NOT going to work. You have to give things time and keep on trying for weeks on any system you decide to use.

Do NOT insist on anything! If he doesn't want to do anything you ask him to do, do not insist (and that means no pushing on his abdomen/chest with the T stick for him to get up on it or training if he is not taking his treat eagerly but trying to go for your hands instead). This is rule number one. You need to show him you respect his wishes even when his wishes are screwing you up. But this does NOT mean you should allow him to bite or even nip you so, if he goes for your hands and starts beaking them, immediately say NO! and distract him, take your hand away or whatever but do not allow him ANY action that is either aggressive or a prelude to aggression.

Personally, I would not ask him to step up to my hand until I know for a fact that he is consistently sweet with me. I've never actually thought this through and figured out why I think this is the best way to go but it is what I do with bitey birds and it has worked for me. I've had an adult male amazon that was abused by his previous owner (punched whenever he bit) for, what?, 2.5 - 3 years now? and I only started scratching his head this week and have never asked him to step up to my hand. Granted, amazons are independent birds while GCCs are Velcro and Zeus has a mate and a small flock so it's not as if he needs my affection while poor Quigley is pretty desperate for it but 100% ambivalent about interaction with humans so it's not the same situation at all but I am just trying to point out that you NEED to give things time to work and that it's better to wait until the bird is ready than push it. Mostly because, if you push it and he bites, you are reinforcing the bad behavior.

As to his not liking the T stick, I think it's because you have made him go on it when he did not want to because, as far as my experience goes, birds don't really mind perching on a stick at all - I mean, even birds that would never go on your hand don't seem to have a problem perching on a stick...

I think you have to stick to one system and keep at it. Tweaking is fine but constantly changing what you do and don't do is not giving the bird any sense of what the parameters are or a sense of security (it's confusing to say the least - I can't even keep track of exactly what you are doing from day to day).