Hello and Request for Help :)

[mikella]

Just had a big response that I deleted by mistake, so frustrating, isn't it?!

Ok, I need to clarify. The ONLY times we have ever 'made' him get up on the T-stick is when he's bitten and needs to be moved off of us. He never bites at it, just stands there not wanting to get up. Don't do this often at all - and only did it in an effort to be consistent like you guys have been telling me since day one (take him off for a 'time out' which we only began trying recently). I can't offer my hand for him to get up to move him - he runs away from my husband's hand when he knows he's going to take him off of him - T-stick is the last option. I don't think at all that he dislikes the T-stick for the times that we've made him get on it when he didn't want to after he's bitten, but rather because he KNOWS very well when we are going to take him off of us after he's bitten and it's the absolute last thing he wants (to be taken off of us). He is desperate to be on us. Most of the time he scrambles to get away and you can't get him to go on the T-stick anyways unless you're looking in a mirror. Then too much time passes for it to be any good (for him to associate the bite/roughness with being put elsewhere and not getting attention). He will happily step up on the T-stick when he knows you're picking him up to be on you.

There are reasons why EVERY 'method' is really tricky with him! You may think 'why the heck doesn't she just deal with it properly, be consistent, and he will be just fine' - but it's not that simple in this situation. What goes on here in this thread is a WHOLE LOT of thinking - not what goes on day to day (unless I say what I did). I have been covered completely so I wasn't having to deal with the biting - just a lot of mulling it over. I started to go nuts, however, not being able to get ANYTHING done because I couldn't use my hands and now he has to be on my arm all the time and not my shoulder. So - I'm covered all up, hands hidden, he's ON one arm... So I'm functioning all day with one arm and NO hands! haha It's enough to make you nutty! At least when he was on my shoulder, I could do a little bit until he would scramble down my arm and I could then hurry to get my hand inside my sleeve - but I do agree that I should be able to see him all the time, and I can't with him on my shoulder with my hood up, and he was getting rough with my hood...

You said I need to respect his wishes even when they are messing me up - I don't think you understood the T-stick thing. If I were to respect his wishes, he would stay on me after he bit - which goes against what you are saying to do. The T-stick is my only way of getting him off of me when he's bitten. Of course he doesn't want to go on it because he KNOWS that I will take him off. I have done positive reinforcement, having him get on it after he's bitten with a treat/click - but then does that work to discourage the biting?? Probably not! Although, in the "ignore" method, it would be the right thing to do.

These are just some of the complicating factors.

Think think think............. I'm trying DESPERATELY to come up with something that will work. And I honestly do feel that when I figure it out, I will KNOW - and that has nothing to do with it working right away, because I know it won't (although I wish it would!).

Options:
-step-up like I mentioned in last post, taking T-stick totally out of the equation because it won't be HIM that is moved if he bites, but me... I would leave room.
-better gloves and go about things as normal with him on my arm but hands not covered and put him elsewhere every time he bites (this will lead back to the problem with the T-stick - he won't want to get up because he knows it's to get him off of me, and if I offer my hand instead it WILL provoke him to bite which is what I'm trying to avoid).
-back to ignoring................

He is a tough little nut to crack. He is SMART though, and if I can just figure out what will work for us, he will catch on, I have no doubt.

Also to clarify - I ALWAYS stopped the target training session when he went for my hand instead of the treat. We seem to be out of that stage though.

You know, I think the ignoring and positive reinforcement method MAY be my only answer at this point. It removes SO many complicating factors. Maybe I didn't give THAT enough time to work. Uncovered hands in gloves, ignore bites, but immediately redirect somehow, whether T-stick "up up" click/treat, or target and click/treat... But then he'd be eating a thousand treats per day!

Now today he's biting my covered arm when offered for him to get up, even though he wants to be on me so bad. This is new. He has a total aversion to my body and clothes and it's CHANGING which says to me that he's LEARNING things I don't want him to learn which is my fault somehow... I think ALL negative may need to be taken out of the picture with him, like before. Ignore and only positive reinforcement. Something is working against me.

I think that way would remove the most human error for him - avoid any aversions and negative associations. Even starting with step up like I was just thinking... I wouldn't want the same thing to happen with my hands that happened with the gloves (he became afraid of them).

[Wolf]

I don't use gloves and Kiki tore my hands up for nearly a year before she finally quit. Also during this time I did not ask her to step up, she would fly to me and land on my head, which always got me bit as I would make her get off of my head, I much prefer having my hand bitten than my ears. This placed her mostly on my arm and if she went to my hand that was fine with me until she bit at which time I placed her on her cage and ignored her until she flew back to me and the process began again. So do what you want about the gloves, as far as I feel they are not the issue, also if you think 5 minutes is too long then change it but keep the system the same, that is tweaking it too fit the bird and circumstances, but keep responding in the same manner, that is to say if he bites you he is placed down and given so much time alone. If he does not bite he gets to stay.
You want and deserve a certain minimum amount of respect and don't respond well to being forced to do a thing and he is the same and that is probably his only issue with the t perch. He doesn't like being poked in the belly to get his cooperation, if he doesn't want to step up on it then don't force him to, just walk away for a few minutes and ask again when you come back. Let him have the right to say no same as you want.
Most people don't work with animals in the same manner that I do, in that I treat them all as intelligent, sentient creatures with feelings that even if a little different than my own at least parallel them. I give them the same trust and respect that I want. This may or may not be as important with animals such as cats and doge, but it is paramount, in my opinion when working with such highly intelligent and sentient as parrots. Now I realize that my experience is limited as all of my birds came to me abused and as adults and this probably requires a bit extra in the areas of patience and consistency than working with a young bird or one that has not been abused, but I don't know that for certain. I do know that responding honestly to them, such as when they bite and I yell ouch and put them down, causes them less confusion than trying to hide the hurt. And the consistent response of putting them down, so they know the results of biting provides them a sense of continuity in that they know what to expect every time. And for a bird this seems to help them with issues of security. I know that this way works, it may take some time but it works. Biting is like any other action in that if it is done often enough becomes a habit which no longer requires the initial emotional stresses that it started with and this does mean that the warning signs for it will be reduced and in some cases not occur at all. Which appears to be the case here. The way that you said that you could not see his eyes made me question if there were a vision problem involved and I am really happy that there is not but it needed to be ruled out of this.
I normally don't pay any attention to beaking and don't normally recommend that anyone try to stop this behavior as it is so much a part of how they examine their world that I don't view it as a beneficial route to go. For me beaking ceases to be beaking when it hurts and at that point it becomes biting. I think that in Quigley's case that I would be willing to modify this point of view to putting him down when he starts beaking at least until he begins to show that he knows the difference.
Respect is a two way street and mutual respect is and always will prove to be beneficial to both parties. Respect as a one way road is not healthy for either party and by showing Quigley due respect in no way means that you give up the right to have him give you the same respect. In the entire year that Kiki tore my hands up to a bloody mass of open sores, not once did I not show her proper respect nor did I allow her disrespect of me to go unanswered. If she bit me for no reason then she was placed on her cage or the closest available surface. I did extent trust to her even while I felt that she was undeserving of that trust, this was a conscious choice that I made because I feel that if you want a thing such as trust then you must first give it so that you can receive it, but that is my way. I also did these things in the manner that I describe to give Kiki time to heal from her abusive past and to provide her with a secure framework from which she could understand that her aggressiveness was neither desirable or beneficial so that she could let down her guard and regain her ability to trust.
I am occasionally accused of ascribing human attributes to my birds, and while I am aware that at times I come very close to that, I really don't think that I do, I honestly don't feel that they are that inept or that we feel things as deeply as they do. I accept them as equals in a world which does not perceive their equalness nor even allow for it. Sort of reminds me of a book that I read once, a long time ago called " Animal Farm". They are no less nor important to the whole than you or I, we all have a role to carry out.

[mikella]

Nooooooonono.... Same problem again. Same misunderstanding. I clarified in my last post why the T-stick was an issue. The t-stick was being used to REMOVE him from us after he bit. Please read last post. Walking away is not an option in these cases because he is ON us, and hand to move him is not an option either.

AND I said I had a real problem having to do that, but I was trying to do what you guys had suggested, remember. Trust me, I respect Quigley and am devoting everything to helping him..... Read last post to understand.

Maybe to make this simpler I should just say: the issue is removing him from us when he bites. He KNOWS we are going to take him off, so he won't willingly go on t-stick, will bite hands (and the goal is to not provoke bites), and is unable to just fly off so can't be 'pushed off.' So what is left to do? This is what I'm trying to get at. Limited options. Which is why I think perhaps the other approach is best - only positive reinforcement.

And actually, after a bite, isn't pushing a bird off or making them step up on your hand the same as making him step up on a stick? Either way, they don't have a choice in the matter... Just a thought.

[Wolf]

Apparently I was typing when you posted you last post so it was not there when I posted. I am a slow typer. Sorry about that.
I am not certain that there is any one perfect answer to the problem. If we try to look at why he is biting then that varies from instance to instance even as a habitual way of him dealing with what he doesn't like so trying to work this out based on why he his doing this beyond a certain point is not going to work either.
All we are able to do is present suggestions, guidelines and some possible options, you are the one that has to do the work and if you think that trying it in this last way might be beneficial then try it out and see. I think that as long as you adhere to the basics of if you bite me then we can't play together and either I go away or put you down if you are on me then you may be able to make it work.
I don't know if these birds are empathic or if they are just that good at reading us or even both, but I know that it does take honest reactions to them. I know that it takes both patience and consistency as well as persistance in order to establish boundries with them. I know that if he feels that you are afraid of him or that you don't like him that nothing will work.
I don't play the blame game as I don't ever in my personal life or in working with animals waste my time with whose fault something may or may not be. So I am not blaming or saying anything about whose fault is whose because it doesn't really matter. Linking causitives to its effects can be helpful in understanding why a thing occurs in order to eliminate the causes, which may or may not eliminate the behavior.
I know that this biting is a learned behavior as it goes against the normal nature of this bird and so it must cause him a certain amount of confusion. This is where I am trying to make suggestions that will enable you to provide a stable framework for him to heal and get past his fear. I have no choice but to think that his biting is based on his fears. A stable framework of if you bite you and I can't be together or we can play until you try to bite establishes this regardless of what originally caused and escalated this behavior because it provide him the security of knowing what happens when he bites. For whatever the cause or regardless of blame he has exhibited that he needs this degree of security to heal and leave this behind him.
And yes he has a choice to be on you or with you or to bite you. He can't fly which does increase his insecurity, but he can be crowded off onto a perch, or a cage top or just about any other surface. You just can't crowd him off from any distance away from the surface. Yes it may be disrespectful to crowd him off of you onto another surface but it is less disrespectful of him to bite you and hurt you and it still is respectful of his right to not be mistreated. You are trying to put this in the arena of absolutes in an arena in which absolutes are not existent. If he wants you to respect his desire to be on you then he needs to respect your right to not get hurt by giving him this respect and trust. You are forgetting about just how intelligent he really is. They are smart enough to manipulate you into giving them what they want and they are smart enough to know that is what they are doing. You keep throwing out the part of the equation that says that he also has a choice in all of this.
I can't tell whether he is manipulating you or if it is your fears that are manipulating you, but I can clearly see that you are being manipulated in regards to this and it is not healthy for any of you.

[mikella]

I was 'chastised' (not the right word, but you know what I mean) for crowding him onto the t-perch to move him elsewhere after biting... But now you're saying it's ok to do in this circumstance? Or no? I can't quite get what you're saying on that point.

And what tells you I'm being manipulated? Honest question because I'm curious - as in, not offended at all, just trying to understand your thinking as it helps ME figure things out.

I also need to say - I have much less fear, I think, than you guys are getting the impression I have.

It is true that I am leery of him, but I don't feel 'afraid' of him per se at this point, at all.

Update about diet: red peppers - no, yellow peppers - no, hot peppers - no, cucumber - no, zucchini - no I've tried different ways of cutting, etc. All veggies are just one big NO as of yet. And now he's decided to only eat wheat and sometimes quinoa, no other grains.


Seeing how he is with my husband tonight made me want to just give it a go and have him step up when I knew he wanted to come up. Give him a chance. I just put my hand within his reach and he got up and I gave him a treat, then exactly what I suspected would happen, happened... He started biting. First time I was able to put him back down before the biting got bad, the second time I thought he might be ok, but he CHOMPED and held on with a death grip. I wanted to see if it really was just me, see what he would do... But I was right. Something about me/my hands enrages him. My husband never gets bites like this anymore. If only Quigley could just explain to me what he thinks/feels!

[Wolf]

I don't know how you are doing the grains for him to pick them out that much, by this time he should be eating them all pretty well and having cooked veggies being added as well. So for me to answer on that I would need to know what you are doing.
I maybe should not have chosen manipulate as the word but I really don't know another word that fits as well. How do I put this in a positive manner? Not quite sure how to word this but lets give it a go. Quigley would be manipulating you probably by crying and begging and screaming for you to come back and get him after you have put him down somewhere due to his biting and you give in to this and so he continues to do this everytime this happens. He has learned that it works and so continues to di it and continues to bite as well because he knows that you will give in to his crying, screaming or begging.
Your own fears manipulating you is a bit harder to put into words, but it is based on your fears of making a mistake or perhaps being too harsh. It would cause you to think that he might have made a little progress so that you can ease off of the method that was working or you thought was working and then the behavior( biting) returns a little stronger or with just a slight difference in how it is happening. You would be seeing reasons why it does not or will not work or it doesn't quite fit exactly what you see as happening or it is not adequate for use for some reason.
we have probably covered every way known to change this behavior from distraction to removing him from your person to simply protecting your body from his bites and waiting him out as well as to simply limiting his access to your person and all of them are inadequate for some reason or another. You are concerned that you are not respecting him if you make him leave your person when he bites you. perhaps our viewpoint of respect is the problem. For me and my normal usage of this word, respect is concern for the rights and / or the well being of a person or being. So I think after having to think about it in more depth it is your own fears that are manipulating you.
So let us consider the matter of rights, understanding that he has to depend on you for the granting of his rights.
Quigley therefore has the basic right of food adequate to his dietary need to maintain a healthy state of being and in adequate amounts.
Quigley has the right to shelter again to keep him healthy as well as safe and secure.
He has the right to medical attention as required to maintain his health and well being.
He has the right to companionship, human and/ or avian
He has the right to freedom such as it does not interfere with keeping him safe from harm
He has the right to protection from bodily harm as well as from abuses that inflict mental and/ or emotional harm.
He has the right to be happy in as much as we can provide in his life in captivity.

Now this is just off the top of my head, but I feel that it is a decent start and you can add more as you feel reasonable to grant. You must also grant that you have the same rights as you grant to him.
With this list of rights including any that you choose to add tell me how you are disrespecting either him or his rights by making him get off of your body when he is inflicting bodily harm on yours by the act of unprovoked biting.
Pushing him with a perch or stick or even your hand is not right when it is used as a training tool but not when it is done in self defense. Hitting would not be allowed because of the inherent dangers of inflicting unnecessary bodily harm, but I think that we both understand this and agree that it should never happen.
I don't know if this will help or not but hopefully it will.

[mikella]

All I was asking was whether 'making' him get up onto the T-stick after having bitten was a no-no - because that's what you guys were giving me flack for, but I thought that you were misunderstanding me, and that was the case. So what I was doing IS ok, and I can put the T-stick against his belly to have him step up to get him off when he's bitten. What I was trying to wrap my head around was what else I would do if this wasn't ok - because there's not many options. SO, yes, this is something I can do, then - getting him off and putting him elsewhere for a 'time-out.'

I don't think him not eating everything is my fault... I've done everything I've been told to do. I have tried both cooking them a little softer and cooking them so that they still are more seed-like, and I've tried parsley and chili. The grains I give him are quinoa, millet, amaranth, wheat, oats, barley, and wild rices (don't think I'm forgetting any...). I've read in threads of Pajarita's where she's said that it can take quite a while to have them eat everything... His favourite is the wheat. Quinoa he will eat when the wheat is gone, and the amaranth and millet is usually stuck in with the quinoa. He will eat some of the types of rice. The barley he picks out and oats he picks out. He will NOT touch veggies when put in his cage (we always put something in his dish right when he's uncovered before breakfast which comes later. He never touches what's in his dish before gloop unless it's fruit). He also will not touch any veggies in his gloop (other than corn, if you consider that a veggie). The only way he will SOMETIMES eat carrot is if I directly give it to him. I try try try, and I've tried a good variety of veggies done different ways. He's just not a fan as of yet...


I, as always, appreciate the response. Just so you know, however........ I'm not a complete moron haha I know he has rights and I have rights (and I know what they are). I would obviously NEVER abuse him......... (?!) Once again, give me some credit. I'm an intelligent person who is trying to understand this little guy and help him/the situation.

[Wolf]

You are getting defensive, but that is fine. I never said anything was anybody's fault just that I could not answer on the food because I did not know what you were currently doing with it.
I do not play the blame game.
I also do not consider you a moron, nor have I implied such a thing.
You were concerned that you were violating respecting him and I tried to help with explaining that which I considered to be respect. As well as what the basic rights that I use to determine if I am violating his rights since that is a part of what I consider respect. I don't think that other than today that I said anything pertaining to your use of the t perch and then it was just to say don't poke him with it. push him with it if you must to defend yourself but there is such a size difference that a gentle poke may not be as gentle as we think. I am not sure that I could feel the difference especially if I was in pain from a hard bite. My listing of rights was intended to help with my explaination of respect as well as to point out that you had the same rights and are deserving of the same respect as you give.
I am thinking that although you are a caring person and have repeatedly shown that you are dedicated to seeing this through, I think that your fear of possibly making a mistake is preventing you from seeing that allowing him to continue to bite you so much is not respecting him or his rights nor yours and causes you to over worry this to the point that you are sending him inconsistent signals which further confuse him and complicate matters for both of you. It makes what you are trying to do to make things better ineffective. Sometimes, not often but sometimes we have to risk making a mistake to correct a worse problem and the fix the lesser problem, because nothing seems to be quite adequate to the task at hand so we must trust our knowledge and our instincts to do the best that we can. I do not see how pushing him as gently as possible when he bites to remove him from your body is violating anything. He is not going to want that but at the same time leaves you with no viable alternative. No technically it is not right but it is not going to hurt him either and in fact if you are consistent should help .
Does this clarify what I am saying? Does this help at all? I am normally extremely blunt and am often said to be too harsh and I am trying to say this as positively and as respectfully as I can so the words are difficult for me to choose correctly at times. If this doesn't help you then I will try again, I don't want you to misunderstand me and have nothing but respect for you and really want you to succeed in helping Quigley through this. My heart cries that this has become so difficult to resolve.

[mikella]

I perfectly understand. I think you hit the nail in the head when you said about fearing making mistakes... And that messing things up. Yes. First and foremost, I've been trying to figure out something I can be 100% consistent with each time (plus that seems appropriate), but the truth is, there's not really any way to be 100% consistent with a certain approach... He can't fly, sometimes it will take me a long time to get him off of me after a bite, sometimes he will sneak a bite in despite covering hands and trying to avoid bites altogether... SO, I just have to stick to what fits best, not 'perfectly' I guess. It's also hard to get my husband on the same page bc our relationships with him are so different. He puts up with a LOT, but Quigley is also not 'aggressive' per se like he is with me (although he has his territorial hormonal moments). As long as it's cut and dry, he will do what I say though, he really wants to help the situation.

I've been told to protect myself and not let bites happen in the first place, so I cover up and keep hands up sleeves
I've been told to not let him on my shoulder, so I now keep him on my arm with my hand up sleeve
I've been told to have him out as much as humanly possible, so I spend most of my day like this, always on guard, unable to do much of anything now that he's on my arm exclusively
...Plus he's a moving target obviously, so it's exhausting trying to keep all these things, and him, just so.

It's just tough! Very tough! If he's going to continue being out with me a lot of the time and me not lose my mind, hands need to come out. I won't be able to avoid bites (so much for the best way to teach no biting is to take biting out of the equation...). But maybe this will be the quickest way for him to learn.

[Wolf]

My dear friend, it is not always easy to know what to do, in a perfect world, as most people see it, this would not even be a possibility, but that isn't the way it is so I just keep doing the best I can and hope that I stay out of my own way. Ha-ha!
You situation has become much too complex in nature, and we not fully understanding each other have all made some mistakes, but nothing that we can't fix. In your search for the perfect solution kept ask but what if he is doing this and we answered that question, as we should, however We should probably have been more aware of this process and just kept advising you to stick with what you were given in the first place. Now that is just a generalization because I am not quite sure how to word what I am thinking. This is all just off the top of my head and I think in pictures that I try to put into words, it is a very inexact process.
My birds are out most days for about 4 to 5 hours as that is all that is possible for me to do. They do just fine, although, I feel bad about it and keep trying to extend their time out of the cage. I could give them more time out, but life doesn't wait on the likes of me and I have things that must gat done. I am positive that you know exactly what I mean as well as how I feel about it. We all have to make sacrifices for the sake of our birds, but we can't neglect the rest of our lives either as that just causes trouble for us. If Quigley's behavior is such that his being out interferes with the rest of your life to the point of causing too much of a problem, then even if he doesn't like it I think that it is time to reconsider his time out. It is not a perfect solution, but it may be the only one that is currently viable for you, so use it. As his behavior improves then you can try giving more time out. and so it goes with most choices you are going to have to work out with him. We all want what is best for our birds and because of that we all keep trying to improve on their conditions. We can't afford to lose sight of our own lives in the process either as we also have responsibilities beyond just them if we are going to continue to provide the best that we can for them. If we are calm, relaxed and happy then he will just naturally be calmer, more relaxed and happier. It doesn't totally change them but it helps.
Pick out what you are going to do about his biting as well as his time out and stick with it. Adjust it only when you have to, if it is workable most of the time stay with it. If it is not workable most of the time then adjust it as needed for it to be workable most of the time. You actually have all of the information that you need for this to come out right and I have faith that you can do so.