Hello and Request for Help :)

[Pajarita]

I like the huts that are not made out of fleece or any material with 'fuzz ' on it. The ones I have I got at ABBA and no longer have the brand on them (and I don't remember it, either) but they are both made out some type of canvas material. They look like this one but they are a solid green inside and out and the inside is the same material as the outside: http://www.mybirdstore.com/HUTS_TENTS_N ... Large.html

Do you turn out the artificial lights at 6 pm and cover at 7:30 pm? Because, if you do that, the 'lowering' of the light is so gradual that it couldn't possibly scare him... I cover the cages when it's completely dark. I follow always the same routine, start with the same bird every day and finish with the same one. I always talk to them softly while I cover them and always say exactly the same thing in exactly the same order ("There's my sweet baby bird, there's my sweet baby Zoey -I scratch her head, neck and cheeks with one finger through the bars and caress her beak and say "Nite nite - tsk tsk tsk tsk - I love you - Good girl! Zoey (or Isis) is a good gir! - Nite nite - tsk tsk tsk tsk - I love you..") and I keep on saying it until they are completely covered. They know the routine and as soon as I start saying it, they come close to the front of the cage and put their heads down for their 'sugar' while going Tsk tsk tsk tsk themselves. Exact daily routines and repeating the same words every single time you do the same action comfort them and make them feel safe.

Now, they ALWAYS vocalize at dusk so his chirping is normal. He is making flock calls but there is no flock to answer him, that's all. But mine all shut up as soon as they get their dinner (at 6:45 pm this time of the year) and, when they are done, it's already quite dark and they all get themselves ready for bed.

[mikella]

Ok great, I'll see what I can find. How come no fluffy material? (Just curious) Also, what size would you get for a green cheek? If I don't find the right one in stores (I popped in two pet stores today just to check out their stock and it is DISMAL), I may order from this site: http://www.healthybird.net/catalog
There are quite a few options, but none exactly like the one you posted. There is one, however, that has a stiff bottom and soft sides (not fluffy, just not reinforced I mean).
I know he will LOVE one of these. He is alllllll about HOLES. haha

About the light - I don't put a light on during the day. Our house has so many big windows that it's really bright (that said, this room that his cage is in is the dimmest room, but still doesn't need a light). That could very well be what he does at night, call to his "flock." I'm going to remember that, to say the same things when I'm doing things that will be part of a daily routine. So far, he's being uncovered at the same time and covered at the same time (well, depending on sun), and I've just started the food routine. No real routine as far as out-of-cage times as we're still feeling things out with him... I know it's going to be a long process. But today for example, he was out earlier today with me for a little while early afternoon, and then an hour or so before supper (but his cage was open for several hours and he roamed around the outside of it). I'm starting to feel a liiiiiiiiiiiiittle bit more comfortable with him again, like.... as of today haha....... for a brief amounts of time. I would love nothing more than to have him on me all the time. But I know it will be a process... It's hard to have him on me when I can't really do anything with my hands...

As far as the hand hatred goes - anything I should be doing, or just keep working on a schedule/diet/etc.?

We had a good evening. I was gone for 2 hours this afternoon and when I got home my husband had him out having some apple, etc. Quigley does go on the T stick now without a treat. I'll keep using it every day. He does glare down at my hands though... ugh. His belly is full now because I gave him seeds (guaranteed he was like HALLELUJAHHHH). I got to stare at his bum for like 25 minutes because he wouldn't get his head out of his dish. He was making little "peeps" the whole time. When I would move a muscle, he would speed up the peeps like triple-time. haha He's now cuddled against his fluffy thing tied to the side of the cage, totally quiet. Should mention, he was digging around in the grain/seed mixture later this afternoon quite a bit... Good sign. Now he's just got to eat it.

Pajarita, did you have any aggression problems with your green cheeks when you got them/they came to you?

And what amount of seeds for supper? I probably only gave him 1.5 tbsp (because I left the grain in, will clean it out after dark).

[Wolf]

The reason for no fluffy or fuzzy materials is because of the risks of getting caught in the material because of his toenails which he needs to hang on to perches and such also because of the risk of him swallowing some of the fuzzy material and it causing an impaction in his crop or other places in his digestive tract.
There are several thing going on and some basic misunderstandings that are all at work here which are causing you to misread the birds actions and your current level of anxiety is influencing his behavior and may be causing him to over react to you as well. In an attempt to illustrate the dynamics involved I am going to use a chain of events which are based on things you have said but are hypothetical, meaning that some of the things may or may not have occurred.
Let us say that you have no experience with birds, particularly with parrots. You get a small bird and are assured that the bird is sweet and gentle and that it is quiet and does not make much noise. You take the bird home and get it switched from the box that they put the bird in, to the nice roomy cage that you got for your new friend. You then open the door to the cage and out comes your sweet little bird. Thinking nothing of it as this is a sweet bird you reach over toward the bird to ask it to step up. The little bird steps up onto your hand and reaches down and suddenly and swiftly grabs on and bites you in that sensitive area between the first finger and the thumb. it hurts like all get out and this little bird only releases his hold with his beak to get a bigger bite and man can this little demon bird bite hard and he just keeps biting harder and you are bleeding and trying to pull it off and it bites harder, until you finally get it off of your hand and it bites down as hard on the other hand while you quickly stuff it back into the cage. You are now hurt and bleeding and scared of this little demon bird that you were told was sweet and gentle.
While this is not an actual depiction of what occurred between you and your new bird, I am certain that it is close enough to sound very close to those events that did occur. I am sure that you were not aware that parrots, all parrots bite and some bite more than others. You were also not aware that this bird would be terrified for several days when it first came to live with you, nobody told you to expect anything like this or how to deal with it. I will also bet that no one told you that these birds are drama addicts either and that if you react strongly to anything they do that you increase the chances that it will do it again and again.
All of this points to you having gone in the space of a couple of days from being delighted with getting your new friend to you being hurt, angry, confused, afraid and more than a little anxious. Your sweet little bird is terrified and aggressive as biting is the only way that it knows to protect itself, since it can't escape. This chain of events or one very close to it is causing you to misunderstand your birds signals o you don't see it trying to communicate with you. I will bet that you did not know that despite all that has happened that this little bird tried to let you know before it bit you. That aggressively biting is for them the last line of defense that they have.
This is not an attempt to show the actual events but rather an attempt to show how the events that happened are interfering with your perception of the bird and what it is doing. Because of these events you are anxious and fearful and as simple of a thing as the bird looking down at your hand ,which it will almost always do even once this is back in balance and you are getting along, is to you not simply looking down at your hand but glaring at your hand and in your mind waiting for another chance to attack your hand. Now this is not an accusation, nor is it a judgment, it is a simple observation. You have reason to look at it in this manner, but it is not how you need to look at things. This would be easier for you if you were dealing with a dog or a cat as they look at things in a similar fashion to how we do, but birds are another thing and they do not respond to things in the same manner that we do. We live in a dominance based society as do dogs and cats and so we understand each other better but bird do not live in a dominance based society and so they do not react in the ways that we are accustomed to. This difference in the way that we think and perceive and react to things is responsible for a large percentage of the birds in rescues being there as well as the ongoing cycle of rehoming birds that routinely occurs.
Believe me, I had to learn all about this all on my own and when Kiki, my Senegal arrived at my house one cold spring morning asking to come in to get something to eat and to get warm I had to learn fast as well. In the first few months of our relationship there was not a half of an inch of my hands that did not have big holes from her bites, I have never been bit so hard by an animal so small so often as by her in my entire life. Today, I am about the only one that can handle her for more than just a few minutes.
Right now you both need to slow down and let what occurred to fade into a memory. You need to relax and start looking at him from the perspective that he is trying to communicate with you by his posture and his movements as well as by the sounds that he is making and the position of his feathers. This is his body language and it is a large portion of how birds talk to each other. I takes a little practice and some learning to look closely. Here is a link to an article on a birds body language that may help you to understand some of your bird actions a little bit better.
http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww15eii.htm
This is a general article and most of the actions are common to most parrots, but it should help you some. Read this and watch your bird while you sit outside of its cage talking and singing to him. See how many of the behaviors talked about in the article that you can observe with your bird. At this point in time you want to devote your time to establishing a schedule that you can maintain on a daily basis, you want to convert your bird to a good diet and you want to get your bird accustomed to you and you to him. Both of you are fearful and need for this to heal and learn to trust each other despite the mistakes that have been made. There is plenty of time and there is no reason to try to rush this process and in fact try to let the bird tell you when to proceed with the next step. Learn to work with him and not to expect the reverse, you must adapt you schedule to his and all training must come when he is ready not when you are. Never force your bird as this will only result in a bird that bites.

[mikella]

Incredibly insightful. Exactly what I needed to hear (I'll get into that...).

First, few clarifications... I am of course well aware that all parrots CAN bite. I fully understand that. ( I've had two prior birds that ran my world ) And I was well aware that he would be terrified coming into a new home - which was why I tried my best (how *I* believed was appropriate, which turns out was wrong) to comfort him and make things very calm and quiet for him and reassure him. I'm a really (and I mean *really*) sensitive person, and it extends to animals as well. I feel things deeply and I anticipated fear and sadness and more - his whole world would be turned upside-down. I thought about this more than I can tell you. HOWEVER, like I said, what I thought was the right thing to do (have him on us) was not the right thing to do at all. I am SO willing to learn.

What I DID misunderstand was his behaviour the first few days - I thought his calm, affectionate behaviour was a sign that he was doing as 'ok' as he could be given the situation. I thought what we were doing was 'working' to help him through the change. Now I "get it," thanks to you guys. But I can't re-do those first three days.

Now, I need some clarification on one point - when you were saying about birds being drama addicts ( ). I understand this. When bitten, I've been told to say a quick "no!" or "ouch" and maybe get him off of me onto a near surface or put him in the cage. I'm wondering if the real KEY is that "getting him off" part. **So that there is no need for me to keep reacting with a "no"** - does that make sense? I'm just thinking through this. The REPEATED reaction is drama? And there needs to be one immediate action taken? I'm trying to learn how to react, in each specific instance. I've tried not reacting, and I've tried reacting more quietly and louder (not "LOUD," but you know what I mean). What Pajarita was saying before made total sense, that there needs to be a reaction. I'm just trying to work out that reaction - and whether it should change given the instance (?). The problem is mostly with me here (I will explain that below).

There has been different instances of biting, and I do not doubt for a SECOND that there were warning signs like you said. And something leading up to the bite as well, causing that reaction of his.

Here is what I've noticed/what has happened over the last ten days or so. Although there's been many more, here are some different instances of biting:
- When on shoulder, if we are doing something with our hands, he has run down to get a chomp out of visible skin
- When on shoulder and he starts to get a little nibbly, it can progress to a chomp (nibbles often progress to chomp, where ever)
- The time he fluttered to the floor and came down the hallway to find me and I lay down on the floor, he waddled over, chomp on inner arm, then hopped up on my arm
- He gets chomp-y with our clothes and I know typically that it soon will progress to a bite on skin
- Sometimes it's a single bite, sometimes he bites repeatedly

Next point: Like I began saying before, I absolutely agree with you that there are
basically always warning signs. And I am missing them. Again, I need to learn and I am so willing. Other than his beak being open and lunging, I am not sure of any signs and I am misreading him (or not reading him at all!). I fully believe that this is one of the main issues - because I anticipate bites now. When you pointed out that I said that he was 'glaring' at my hands when on the T stick - that was a TOTAL light bulb moment for me. I am viewing everything through that lens now - I don't trust him. Shame on me. And I'm sure there are moments now that I should trust him when he's nibbling, yet I don't KNOW that I can trust him in that moment because I can't judge his behaviour at this point. So I'm erring on the side of caution right now. I get nervous. The key is learning to read his behaviour.

You are underestimating me most times when you say "I bet you did not know" I know very well parrots can bite, I knew that his world would be upside-down coming into a new home with new people, I have heard many times about birds being "drama addicts" (as well as "not to react" to biting for this reason, which I now know is not appropriate either), and I know that *I* am misreading his behaviour. Give me a little credit!

I am going to do my best to learn his behaviour. My last bird (had another one previous to that) passed away 2.5 years ago, so it's been a while - and it was a different bird, different situation. My other two birds grew up with me. Quigley is new and I'm rusty.

Your post made me think from a different angle, and I'm always all for that!

The missing link right now is me catching his cues. He's an awesome little guy and I WANT to trust him.

So far, things are going a-ok. I wholeheartedly believe that if I can learn enough and work with him, he will be the best little friend.

[Wolf]

I have noticed that you have mentioned that you will talk to you bird for up to a couple of hours in a single setting. I think that this is much too long and that you should consider using shorter sessions of about 10 minutes duration up to 4 times a day. very often a bird will make more progress with shorter but more frequent sessions. This is most often used in training as opposed to getting the bird to bond to and trust you but in essence the principle is exactly the same as the bird has a short attention span and this make longer sessions tiring at least and less productive as the bird retains less. The bird sees you come to it and talk and sing to it and offer it something good more often using this strategy of short sessions and this should prove to be more productive in dealing with the problems that you are currently having with him. You could still incorporate a longer session about two hours before his dinner time as that would be an ideal time to open his cage and let him out for some exercise as he would be easier to coax back into his cage at this time by the simple act of showing him that you are putting his dinner in his cage and allowing him to go in on his own.

[mikella]

And I quote (from Sunday)... " But will I make it worse if I stay in here a lot? Is there a "too much?" " haha

These are the things I need to know! I am getting a lot of info from you guys... I'm told to have him in cage and spend lots of time singing and talking, but I need to know things like this. I was wondering this, which was why I asked Sunday before I started doing my work in this room.

I know lotsss is being said so things get lost.

I will switch up to what you suggested.

(Noticed you posted just a few minutes after me - You may have been writing when I was posting my initial post, not sure if you saw it)

[Wolf]

Actually I guess I have a weird sense of humor and it can backfire, but I just can't not try to inject some humor into these longer posts. I would think that most people would think clearly enough that when they see a bird with a huge beak to realize that it might be used in self defense even if they were not told this. Also as I said to begin with I was giving a hypothetical chain of events based loosely on previous posts, I was not striving for total accuracy, in either the events themselves or in my comments during it. The sole purpose of it was to provide a little different way to view it, a chance to back off and see it with new eyes so to speak and it appears to have done it job quite well.
I am aware that I was taking a chance by using this approach, especially in a post where I am not present to guide the person through the process. This approach can elicit thoughts and emotions that are directly related as well as some that are linked to previous events in the persons past. In this case I thought that if you could see this through new eyes it would be worth it. The two most important thing in the post were the fear issues and the link to some of the birds body language and as long as you got them we did good. As I said in the other post I did not intend anything to be accusing or judgmental in any way, I said that because I did expect that some of it might be taken as such, not my intent at all.
I must admit that I rather hoped that where I said that " but no one told you that they bite" thing that you would at least smile a little. Oh well.
On to bigger and better things.
Quigley's nibbling! I think that what you are describing is called beaking, or at least a large percentage of it is. This is where the bird sort of nibbles at your clothing, skin or whatever is handy to get that monster beak on. It is part of how they explore their world it tells them what it tastes like, how firm it is, it can tell them if it will support its weight. they use it a lot. They also use it to learn how hard to bite it or how hard to not bite. This is where your reaction to it becomes important. The bigger of a noise or the more you respond to it the more drama there is for him and it will possibly incite a repeat performance of it. If you say ouch loudly and place them beside you and leave it at that you are telling it that it bit you too hard and that you won't play with him if he does this. If you say ouch don't bite, leave the bird on you and just keep telling it to stop biting you are giving the bird a drama value and it will think of it more of as a game to be repeated. I think I said that right.
In actuality the bird doesn't really want to hurt you and once it understands that it is hurting you and that makes you withdraw from it by placing it down it will begin to bite les often and not as hard. This is because the thing that it desires the most is to be with you.

[Wolf]

I was writing and saw it and to that my response is sometimes. Most often with the new bird the more time that you spend with it at first the better, This is because you are the only thing that is remotely familiar and it is terrified so your continued presence can serve to reassure it and help it to calm down and be less afraid. Sometime, just like my humor it doesn't work and you have to switch how you approach it. Just like sometimes I have to apologise over my sense of humor.

[mikella]

No need to apologize! I wasn't bothered, just missed the humour haha (oops)

Will be back later to respond!

[Pajarita]

OK, first of all, don't worry too much about not been able to read the signs right before he bites you because the truth is that when birds (and this is especially true of GCCs) have been neglected so severely and not treated right (I will elaborate on this below), they will bite as a matter of fact and, most often, without any previous signs because he does not expect humans to do good by him. Furthermore, your first few days actions would have been maybe not 100% ideal but still OK if he had been a well-loved, well-taken care of GCC and the ONLY reason why they were not is because of the special circumstances.

Now, as Sofia in The Golden Girls would say: Picture this! Little bird all by himself for years after losing the only friend he had in the world, desperate for company to the point of high anxiety, kept hormonal with bad light schedule and diet for years (and, most likely, in constant physical discomfort if not pain), gets let out once a week (most likely for cage cleaning) for a measly hour or so. Does the bird want to go back into his cage? Of course not! How does the owner get him back in? Clip his wings (thus creating more anxiety as the only predator-avoidance strategy has been taken away from him), go after him and grab him (creating thus, a fear and hatred of hands and complete distrust of humans) forcing him back into his cage. THIS is the reason why behaves the way he does and your goal, right now, is to convince him that you and your husband can be trusted. But this is not something that you can achieve in a day, a week or a month. It will take time, patience, persistence and consistency (and these two last ones are the ones that we work on with the strict routines, schedules and same phrases repeated every time the same action takes place).

Now, I looked at your video (maybe Wolf can put it up?) and I don't see a scared or even an anxious bird. I see perfectly normal behavior. Is there anything that you can improve to make things better for him? Yes. I would like the cage to be higher (they feel safe when high up) and bigger. I would like the blinds to be up for dawn and dusk (better exposure to twilight). I would like perches of different diameters (they all seem to be pretty much the same size and a tad too big for my taste because he needs to have some that are perfect for his foot size so the diameter has to be one that allows his toes to go around it but the claws from the front toes and the ones from the back don't quite meet). I would like to see his happy hut at the back of the cage (you have the little cozy at the front and that's a vulnerable position for a prey animal). I would also like full spectrum lights (CRI 94+ and Ktemp 5000) in the ceiling fixture and on throughout the entire day. I know you said that you have good natural light but this is only for our eyes and not theirs. Window glass has UV blockers so the light that goes through it is deficient for birds (they see UV) and, regardless of how many windows we have and what exposure they have, light inside a house is never as bright as it would be out in the open so, taking into consideration that birds are the most vision-oriented species of all the vertebrates, it always benefit them to have the best light available in the market. Another consideration is the fact that good light allows them to produce normal levels of 'mood' hormones: serotonin (the happy hormone), dopamine (the reward hormone), oxytocin (the bonding hormone) as well as others that regulate physical functions.

Now, I don't believe that limiting the time you spend with him is the right way to go. I do firmly believe in very short training sessions but keeping company is not training, it's comfort and security and they are meant to have it 24/7 while training is an unnatural act (BIG difference!).

As to your reaction to pain, don't think about it, just react normally. In my personal opinion, it doesn't do to 'fake' things with birds, it's much easier in the long term to be natural about these things because fake requires a thought process of a reflex action and that negates consistency.

Yes, I did get GCCs that bit. Actually, all four came to me because of 'bad behavior' (screaming, biting) but out of the four, there was only one that was a challenge (the other three were perfectly sweet and docile in a matter of days and were never really 'bad' to begin with, just desperate for attention). His name was Boca and he was brought to me by the sister of his previous owner who did not want to go into detail about his care but said that he was extremely aggressive due to her sister having abused him - she repeated the same phrase three times while her and her husband were here talking to me and the phrase was: "My sister should NEVER have children or animals!" He was a lot like your Quigley (btw, I LOVE his name! -there is this movie I like a lot: 'Quigley down under' that I watch every time it's on TV) with the difference that he could fly so he would fly out of his cage to perch on my shoulders and proceed to bite my neck, cheeks, ears and hands when he could reach them. I had to walk around with a hoodie tied around my face and a towel draped around my neck so he couldn't reach my flesh. He also had the most endearing habit of burrowing down your neck opening and going to sleep in there and, at the beginning, he would bite while in there, too! I just wore a T shirt under my shirt and only allowed him in between the two plus I wore a padded bra (I am kind but not a masochist ). It took a few weeks for him to calm down but he did. He was never as affectionate as the other three but he fell in love with Pichu when he first came to me and, thus, did not really need my affection.

I think I covered everything, let me know if I did not... Ahhh, one more thing, I don't believe in the 'drama addiction'. If it exists, I've never seen it and I've not only cared for more than 300 parrots, I've been observing their behaviors for many years VERY closely.