Hello and Request for Help :)

[liz]

No, he's been clipped his whole life and was just clipped again right before I adopted him... If I tried to shove him off I'd probably need stitches. Ugh.

That is a lot of the problem. An un flighted bird will stay scared. They are like the newly adopted child who can't walk. They are always trying to defend themselves even when the person giving them care is there to protect them.

I say "owe" when one of them chew too hard. I don't know why they like to chew on me. It is like they are teething.
When the Too screamed the Macaw who was tasting my finger bit down super hard. I said "owe" and she let go. If I had gone to the "OWE" I could have lost my finger.

[mikella]

I know... I'm not happy about it, but there's nothing I can do to make the feathers come back. Just wait. And hopefully between now and then I can help him build a little muscle and stamina. I noticed straight away that he was incredibly stumbly/unstable/clumsy. Being stuck in a cage all the time (and one that was kept the same, not rearranged) doesn't do any good at all. Even if it was rearranged, it would have to be every second haha ...So, major deficit of mental and physical stimulation.

In a way, however, it may have been too much of a shock if he came to a new place with new ppl, and had more flight and was allowed, for once, to use it (his feathers had grown in a bit right before I took him, but she typically had him clipped his whole life which is sad... just didn't bother since he wasn't having any time out of cage I guess... which is sad too. But she clipped him right before I took him in, I had no say in it).

Anyways, moot point.

We wait.

(As I said before, ouch, etc. has no noticeable effect on him right now - other than it sort of seems to irritate him and he will do it again harder wherever he can. The goal, of course, is that he would stop. Obviously.)

[liz]

Rambo cannot fly but to keep his muscles strong I line him up with the sofa, count to 3 while lifting him to make him flutter. By the time I get to 3 he has lift enough to let go of me and fly to a soft landing area. I back up a little each time.

[Pajarita]

Hmmm, I get the impression that you keep on expecting improvement in his behavior from one day to the next and, if this is the case, I might as well tell you that this is NOT going to happen. It will take quite a few weeks for him to start 'calming down' and the fact that we are in breeding season right now and that he is already overly hormonal and cannot fly is not helping things, either, so be patient because, if I were you, I would not expect any major improvement until late June.

Now, the 10 - 15 minute out of cage sessions are not helping. He needs to be out all day long or for as long as you are home. He cannot fly so he cannot get to you to bite you and, if he is biting you is only because you are putting yourself at risk (I am not trying to be mean or scold you here, I am trying to make a point that people get bit by clipped birds only because they allow it and allowing a bird to bite you, right reaction or no reaction, is never a good lesson for the bird). Open his cage in the morning when you uncover it and just go about your things. Once the sun is out and the sky is completely lit, turn on the overhead lights and give him his breakfast (put about 1/3 cup of gloop out in the morning, along with raw produce and leave it there until it's time for him to get his dinner). Talk, sing to him, etc but let him stay out without getting so close to him that he can get you. He needs the freedom not only because nobody likes to be in a jail cell but also because he has been confined to one for so long that he will really calm down only when he realizes that he will have as much freedom as he can get and that this will not change (and that's why you need the strict routines and repetition of phrases before each action -things like 'Good morning" or similar when you uncover his cage and 'Nite nite' when you cover it and something else when you are going to go out and he needs to go back into his cage for a little while -I tell mine "You be good babies and I'll see you later. Byebye, good babies, byebye" and always give them a treat when I put them in). The 3 times a day 10 to 15 minute sessions should be for target training. I know that he wants to be on you real bad and that you want him to but being on you and biting you is not what he needs to 'see' as proper behavior so this needs to change. You can't allow him to get into the habit of biting you. Just keep him company and interact verbally and through the Tstick and target training for now. Once you see that his demeanor is changing (and this means maybe in a couple of weeks), you can start allowing him short sessions on your hand as part of a target training session (as in step up and step down). And, if he bites you (even it it's through your clothes and you don't even feel it), you immediately tell him 'No, don't bite, bad bird' or whatever you choose, and put him in his cage for exactly 5 minutes by the clock and only then let out again but don't allow him on you immediately after, either. He needs to learn that biting is not necessary or acceptable and that doing it means loss of privileges.

[cml]

I've tried to stay out of this thread as there is so much info and suggestions going back and forth here, but some of the below I STRONGLY DISAGREE with:

And, if he bites you (even it it's through your clothes and you don't even feel it), you immediately tell him 'No, don't bite, bad bird' or whatever you choose, and put him in his cage for exactly 5 minutes by the clock and only then let out again but don't allow him on you immediately after, either. He needs to learn that biting is not necessary or acceptable and that doing it means loss of privileges.

I'll not comment much on saying no, or ouch or whatever when getting bit (I disagree with this), but trust Pajarita when she says that you need to learn prevention rather than dealing with bites. The best way of unlearning biting behaviour is not getting bit. As Pajarita says, you do not want it to become a habit and learned response any more than it already is.

Regarding time-out time in the cage as punishment for bits, its a horrible horrible idea and will only lead to the bird resenting the cage, and not appreciating it. The cage should be just that, a safe and fun haven, not a place for punishment or revoked privileges. Please see this article by Michael for more info: http://trainedparrot.com/Caging/

And yes, this whole process will take time Mikella! Pajarita is correct when she says that you cannot realistically expect changes for many months, it takes very long for them to regain trust, getting comfy in their new environment, bonding with you etc. Unlearning an ingrained biting behaviour might take longer. With Stitch it took many months of blood and pain to work through it, so I speak from experience. He used to bite several times a day with bleeding wounds as a result from every bite. My hands have tons of tiny scars on them from this period.
He's a cuddlebug now and I VERY rarely get bit any longer (maybe once a month, and then never any bleeding anymore), and when I do its my fault for not seeing the situation for what it is.

You need persistence and patience and its super-important that you are consistent. All these changes everyday is not helping. I realise you are only following advice given here, but do not implement everything at once. As I wrote in my last post, TAKE THINGS SLOWLY. You didnt listen to me then regarding not letting him out until you had a positive way of getting him back in and moving him about, but please at least consider what I written above. Implement one thing at a time and give it a week or so before the next change.

Yes, out of cage time is vital and I do not disagree with it, but going from a cage bound parrot to a parrot with too much out of cage time, a thousand changes all at once and a non consistent way of dealing with bites (reacting to it with verbal cues, thus reinforcing the behaviour) is not helping. Better then to have a short but positive out of cage time and slowly (over the time of many weeks, not days) letting the bird be out for longer and longer periods of time.

In this instance I believe:
Quality, fun, and positive out of cage time > long out of cage time

It will take a lot of weeks or months before you see results, but you will get there!

[mikella]

Pajarita:

I wouldn't say so much that I expect it, but that I hope for it. Realistically, I know that this will be a long process. Keep in mind I'm using this thread as a sort of diary and am just expressing how I feel.

He bit me this morning when I was offering him apple. He has never bit me in this situation before, other than once when I offered melon and he didn't recognize what it was (he's still not big on melon and it was a tiny piece). Apple is his favourite, and I've never had an issue before with this. So I was not being careless in any way. I didn't necessarily "let" him bite me like you suggested.

I have no problem having him out all the time if he "can't get to me" (like you said, since he's clipped) - but in reality, he can. Do you mean you want me to avoid him all day other than the times that I'm interacting with him? He flutters to the floor, finds me, and will climb up if I let him. He is desperate to be on me, like I said. What do I do in this case? Also should mention, because he can't fly, he can flutter down from his cage, but he can't get back up - so I would spend the day taking him back to his cage constantly/whatever other surface I had set up for him.

I am getting many different opinions and I'm just trying to filter through them, think them over, and find what works. I'm still figuring this out. Please don't get frustrated with me.

I've only had him for 2 weeks or so.

This is a learning process.

So, if now I'm supposed to have him out all day, how can I do this? Do you mean to just leave his cage open and let him climb around on it? This is fine with me (but he does flutter down and will find me). Or have his cage open and have other surfaces that he can climb to to be on? (until he flutters down to the floor and gets to me)

I am open to ANY suggestions - I hope that's been evident. I'm seriously trying to do the right thing. When you say what I'm doing won't do him any good - I'm only doing it because it's all I know how to do/it's what I've been guided to do by those of you here. If I need to change it, I need specific info...

He is not flighted, but jumps off the top of his cage and hunts me down haha

So - solution? I need an exact plan, and I will do it. I need to know exactly what you mean when you suggest these things and how I can make it happen.

I hope you know how committed I am. I feel like I deserve a little slack - I'm honestly trying to do the right thing. You tell me, I do it.

[cml]

I hope you know how committed I am. I feel like I deserve a little slack - I'm honestly trying to do the right thing. You tell me, I do it.

We do, and I am really glad for your bird that he found his way into your home. Both you and your husband seem to genuinely care for your new family member, and also to be willing to work to overcome the difficulties you face. Thats a rare quality in new parrot owners, so kudos to you!

[mikella]

cml - THANK YOU. I will be back for proper reply.

Honestly, my head has been spinning since I got him. I'm trying to take advice the best I can, but there are so many conflicting suggestions that it is overwhelming.

One thing right now:

"You didnt listen to me then regarding not letting him out until you had a positive way of getting him back in and moving him about" - I did. We use the T stick exclusively now. And as soon as you spoke about having more in-cage time to get settled - that's exactly what I did until this point (when I'm hearing 'needs more time out'). I gradually increased his 'outings' since I took your advice to have him in. I saw a change from this (having him in), he was much more comfortable in his cage, I was spending hours just sitting in the room working and he seemed to relax.

Should add - If my opinions seem inconsistent, it's because they are. One minute I feel like I agree with someone, then the next minute, I feel like I agree with someone else. I'm just trying to figure all this out.

[Wolf]

This is probably one of the most difficult times for you with the various suggestions from different people with somewhat different ways of accomplishing the same things. This is where you must think and talk these things over with your husband and come up with your own way of dealing with these behaviors. I know that I have rum the gamut of what I know to help you to the point that most of the time I am just repeating what I said before, I may say it a little differently but I keep saying the same things.
Perhaps you should make a list of the suggestions that were made by each person and then look at all of them and you and your husband decide which ones to use and when to use them. Don't forget to add what you know from previous birds to the list as well. I am sure that you also have some useful ideas for this.
One of the things that is difficult from this end is that we are not there to see what transpires and for me when I make a suggestion and you are back with the same problem on the second day or even later that day, I usually try to suggest an alternative way to accomplish the same thing because I assume that you rejected my previous suggestion.

[Saber]

I like the idea of listing things out. That seems to help in many situations, even if it seems a bit over the top. I personally like doing things in excel. I can make easy lists that way. For example, one column on behavior: Biting, Screaming, etc. And then have several rows with the suggested solutions to deal with that issue (or swap and do the rows as the issue and the columns as the solutions - whatever works best for you). This way you can print it out and be able to make notes on it (or if you prefer to make notes directly on the computer, that's fine too).

You could also start a separate excel sheet for foods. Make your list of foods you've tried, what dates you've tried them, and notes on how he feels about them. That way if you have some he seems to dislike, you know when the last time you've tried them and can revisit them at a later date. I know my CAG Scooty goes in weird waves...one month he loves one thing and then next month he's on to another lol.

There is so much info and the posts/replies here are very lengthy so I think making some sort of note system will help you keep things much more organized. Date everything so you can put things into perspective as you move along your journey.

I personally have a a cute pink binder for Scooty (I know he's a boy but I like pink...what can I say lol). In my binder I keep a "master list" of toxic foods/woods and the such. I know Wolf linked to it on another topic here, I can't remember if it was this tread or another one in the food section). I printed that out so I have a quick reference and I don't need to go to my ipad every time I want to check on something. I also keep in here some of his favorite recipes too. Then you can keep your spreadsheets and notes in regards to his behavior and what you've tried and the suggestions others have made. Time seems to mush together and when I think I've been trying this new food for weeks it's only been 5 days lol.

That's just my way of doing things though. Maybe it will help you or at least get you ideas