Hello and Request for Help :)

[Pajarita]

Of course you are confused! And, don't worry, we already figured out that you are really tryng super hard. And Wolf is 100% right, you need to think about the different approaches that have been recommended and see which one strikes a chord with you and your husband.

I know a lot of people say that putting a bird that bit you in the cage for a time-out is the wrong thing to do but the problem I have with this position is that they argue that a bird should not see its cage as a place for 'punishment', that it should be its 'home'. Well, birds don't have 'homes', they live out in the sky, the trees and going from one place to another so I fail to see how any bird would regard a cage as a 'home' when the concept of home is not even hard-wired into them by nature. You also have to take into consideration that I personally hate cages, crates and anything that resembles a jail or restricts an animal natural need to roam, fly, run, walk, slither or whatever the specific animal's main mode of transportation is. It has been proven over and over that confinement creates stress, even in zoos where the animals are in large areas they have issues from them so it seems that, to them, cages are already 'punishment' no matter how large or comfortable they are. The only birds that like cages are the ones that have serious psychological issues and/or a broken spirit, otherwise, they are all more than happy to spend their entire life out.

The advice I give you is what I would do, and, if I was in your shoes, I would leave him out all the time that I was around for the simple reason that I feel terrible about birds been kept in a cage for years (I always try to see things from their point of view and try to imagine how they would feel about things by comparing to nature's ways) and, if he follows me around the house, I would just keep one step ahead of him so he cannot 'climb' on me. I would put a little ladder or a rope with knots going from the floor to his cage so he could climb up on his own and a nice branch (a semi-thick one with little branches coming off it) tied to the side of his cage so he could climb up and around (you can hang a toy or stick a piece of fruit in it, too). And, if and when he gets real insistent and a pain in the neck about following me, I would use the Tstick and put him back on his cage while I repeat 'Go home' all the way back (this is what I use with my mean birds, the ones I cannot really handle with my hands, to make them go to their 'place' in the birdroom but you can use whatever phrase you want to use, the idea is for him to understand a command that means he needs to go back to a specific place) and once he is on his cage or the branch, I would praise praise praise and give him a treat. If this works with wild-caught ex-breeder male amazons, it has to work with a little handfed bird.

But, again, just do what you feel is the right approach because it is a fact that what works for most birds will fail miserably with a few.

[mikella]

Thanks again for the replies.

(And thank you Saber - I took your advice and started writing in a notebook. Much easier to refer back to things and keep track of things than scrolling back through pages in this thread.)

I've done a lot of thinking. And a lot of reading. And what cml brought my attention to is what I've decided I need to try.

Only positive interactions, quality over quantity when it comes to time out of the cage (for NOW, to ensure as much as possible that it's ALL positive and avoid bites), clicker and treats, target training.

What I started a few days ago is clicking and treat, then "up up" (on T stick), clicker, treat. He is really quite good at this now. He certainly understands it, but sometimes is quicker than others depending on how badly he wants the treat haha I've been using a type of little seed, but I think I will switch to corn because he loves corn now. No luck with other vegetables, has gone back to not even eating peas. Still won't eat carrot. Barely touches his seeds at night now. I tried his pellets last night and he wouldn't eat any, so switched them out for seeds and he had literally only a few. Giving him seeds for "treats" during the day would affect this, I know. But he was only eating very little before this too. Will see how much of a difference it makes if I swap out seed treats for corn.

***Any harm in pureeing (lightly) veggies and fruit to give him off of a spoon just to make sure he's getting some more nutrients for now? I'm certain he's not eating enough. I can see his "cleavage" at the bottom of his belly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this mean he's a little thin? I'd like to be able to weigh him, and I have a tiny kitchen scale, but I'll have to figure out how to do this. Not yet.

He's been doing lots of walks around the house on the floor with me urging him on and lots of flapping sessions. And in the evening (before supper) we are both with him and he hangs out on us. Early in the day it's me and him and if he's in the cage, I'm mostly in the room with him.

It's not realistic to have him out all day at this point (in particular since I work from home and need to sit and work, can't spend all day going back and forth with him, the next month is important for me. Also - would be much too difficult to avoid bites for now). But I will be getting a ladder to go from his cage to the floor and onto some other surfaces so he can continue to feel a little more independent. I think he will like this. Also going to get husband to build a floor perch and one for the kitchen counter.

I feel like this is the way to go for now. "No bite!" just isn't right - at least at this point. It doesn't have the right effect on him, seems to even urge him to bite more. It can't be effective this way if it doesn't do what it's supposed to do. It won't stop the behaviour. I think what I do has to be ENTIRELY different than what his old owner did - in order to change his behaviour. I can't continue doing what she was doing when he would bite. It clearly wasn't effective before - and even with alterations, it's just perpetuating his behaviour.

If I can keep interactions positive I think it will help him feel more comfortable with us as well. Biting is stressful for not just us, but him too.

He asked me for a head scratch last night.

He hasn't been sleeping in the birdie hut I made him (STILL need to figure out posting pics small enough in file size), but he checks it out during the day and at night he crams between it and the bars... but then goes back to his sleeping perch when I cover him. I wonder if he will ever start to sleep in it. Is it ok for him to sleep clinging to the bars? Does this a bit. Seems very uncomfortable for me - yet, I'm obviously not a bird haha I'm not quite sure what to do because his fluffy buddy is still with the perch at the front top of his cage - I wanted to leave it to not upset him when I put the hut in. I assumed he would prefer the hut and leave that at night, but no. I think I'll simply put the fluffy thing at the top back rope perch. I wonder if he would sleep there or keep sleeping on that perch in the front. We'll see.

[Saber]

In regards to the weighing, it depends on your specific scale. If he will stand on any sort of smaller t stand (I'm not sure how big that one that your husband made or if he likes that yet) you just have to put the stand or whatever you can get him to stand on and "tare" the weight. This will zero out the scale taking into account the weight of the object on top of it. Then when you put him on you will get a read on only his weight. You can also use a shallow tupperware type container. I put that on my kitchen scale and tare it (don't forget to set it to grams...mine has both ounces and grams) then I set Scooty inside it. He won't sit in there long but it's enough for the scale to read He won't sit inside a container that has higher sides on it...it has to be the casserole type tupperware lol.

[cml]

DIY bird scale:
http://theparrotforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9039&p=71400&hilit=diy+scale#p71400
Mine's very similar to the one posted above, only I have a T-perch on the scale rather than the design seen above.

[Pajarita]

Good enough! If you feel that leaving him in his cage most of the day is the way to go, then do it. In my opinion, it will just slow the healing process because this was what his life was like before but I could be wrong.

I don't understand what you mean by "I can see his cleavage" though...but, if he is not eating his seeds with gusto at night, there is something not quite as it should be, especially if he is not eating enough so, if I were you, I would make an appointment at an avian vet and get him tested. Are you able to towel him?

[cml]

Good enough! If you feel that leaving him in his cage most of the day is the way to go, then do it. In my opinion, it will just slow the healing process because this was what his life was like before but I could be wrong.

Come on Pajarita, you are more mature than that surely?

It's not at all "leaving him in his cage most of the day" that's important, but rather to make sure that time out of the cage is a) positive and b) not stressful (not for the bird nor the human).

Of course Mikella should work towards more and more out of cage time, no one is suggesting otherwise, but personally I dont think going from cage bound to free roaming in the blink of an eye is a good approach, and especially not with aggression problems.
Your suggestion with putting the bird into the cage as punishment for biting is downright harmful for the poor birds psyche and will lead to nothing else but a resentment for the cage.

Since the previous owners pattern was to deal with biting in the following way; "Say no, blow on face, grab bird with hands and put into the cage", doing things the way you are suggesting is only going to be making things worse.

I've only told Mikella that there is an option to your "all birds in out all day in one room"-approach, one that is based on positive reinforcement and mutual respect and bonding between owner and bird through mutal enjoyment.

To deal with biting she will need a positive way of distracting the bird, creating a more fun and safe environment where biting is unnecessary. When a bite happens making a fuss about being bit isnt a good idea either. The idea is to make other behaviour than biting more fun and desirable for the parrot and thus "untrain" biting. It's tough and takes time, but it works.

Your methods and ideas might work in an environment where you have scores of birds in the same area, where the birds will be distracted all day long by each other. This is not the case for most bird owners though, something I've tried to tell you before. Your reality is not the same as everyone else's.

Regarding food and solar schedule etc, I've said to Mikella that if its feasible then your suggestions are good and since they are already implemented I would keep them. Personally I would have moved a lot slower than you suggested and gradually introduce changes to minimize stress. But done is done and long term these are good things to strive towards.

Bottom line, I believe in positive reinforcement and that its important that we work towards creating an environment where the parrot is happy, feels that it is loved and is secure in its home, isnt stressful and where we value quality time over quantity time. I try to have focus on my two birds when they are out and about, many hours everyday! Can you say the same for all your birds?

This is good reading from Michael's blog for you Pajarita that I've also sent to Mikella!
I've also linked these 4 articles from Michaels blog:
http://trainedparrot.com/Good_Behavior/
http://trainedparrot.com/index.php?bid= ... th+Parrots
http://trainedparrot.com/Bad_Rewarding/
http://trainedparrot.com/Taming/

[mikella]

I will be back soon, but for now I need to clear one thing up - Quigley's life now is NOTHING like how it used to be. That comment, honestly, was offensive...

I've said countless times that I want nothing more than to be able to have him out all the time with me - and eventually I will! If I am to avoid biting right now like everyone has suggested however, this is not possible (at this point). He is a biting machine. So by having him out multiple shorter times earlier in the day, and a long span before supper when we are both home, I can avoid aggression so that neither of us (Quigley or me) are stressed. His stress is my stress and my stress is his stress. I think having positive time together will help him feel comfortable - as I said before. And not having to revert to a technique (to deal with biting) at all similar to his old owner's I think will help as well. The goal is to help him heal, trust us, and not feel the *need* to be aggressive when it's unnecessary (and use/strengthen old behaviours). If he's constantly tempted to bite (and if I'm reacting similar to his old owner), it's difficult to find any sort of "in" - any way to break the behaviour and help him realize he doesn't have to bite. If I don't put him in the position to bite, we can spend quality time together and he can slowly begin to see us in a different light - Hands and skin aren't bad and mean.

He has company all day (other than about two hours some afternoons), he is eating healthier food, waking and sleeping at the proper times, lots of interaction and love from us.

This is going to be a looong process - but I feel positive about it. And much more positive since avoiding the biting all-together.

Like you said, Pajarita, different approaches for different birds is sometimes necessary.

I'd rather HE not have to go through the snapping, biting, adrenaline rush of aggression and me saying "no! no bite!" every minute.

[Wolf]

I think that you are on the right track, you should try to make all of your interactions a positive for both you and your bird as much as possible. The best way to train a bird to not bite is to avoid the bite. Even though your bird may be in his cage a bit more than desired, it is not as if you are not there with him so except for containing him to avoid the current level of aggression, this is not so different than him staying on top of his cage or on a play type station while you are hanging out. So I see no real negative issues with this approach. As I have previously said often times shorter and more frequent sessions can produce better results than longer ones that are less frequent.
We all have different ways that we prefer, but these are often influenced not only by what we know but by the conditions that we have set up where we keep our birds. And sometimes when giving suggestions we may not even be totally aware as to how much these things are influencing our suggestions. But you as the owner must also realize that these are just that, suggestions based on our ways and may need to be adjusted to meet your circumstances and I really appreciate that cml took the time to speak up with his thoughts on this situation. If for no other reason than it offers you another approach to consider. You are doing very well and I think that you really have all of the information that you need to get through this, if you will just relax and trust yourself and what you already know along with the information that you have been offered. regardless we are still here and will offer suggestions if you need our help.

[mikella]

Thanks, Wolf! Yes, I need all the help I can get haha (I'm not leaving this thread until I'm kicked out of it!)

Things will change as time goes on and he becomes more comfortable. I'll have him out as much as I can - More and more as he comes around. I'm also going to see how much it will help to have a better set-up for him in the room he's in - maybe he would be more likely to stay there a little longer rather than hunting me down (although I doubt it) I'm going to get a ladder on Monday to go from his cage to the floor, and one to go from his cage to the top of a dresser. I've been trying to think of what I could put on the dresser for him, since he's really not into "toys" of any sort. I'll see what I can figure out. I need to find that something that he likes to fiddle with. Any suggestions? He loves HOLES. Maybe I could do something with toilet paper rolls or Kleenex boxes. Once in a while he will shred stuff.

When I'm sitting in the room with him and I have his cage open, sometimes he will stay if I'm in his sight and not moving. I can keep trying this too. He begs for me though and it makes me feel so bad... He wants to be with me, but he can't help but bite. If his cage is closed, it cuts down on the begging and he seems more settled.

I have a feeling that my husband is his favourite... I don't know if it's just that I'm with him all day so hubby is like a novelty or something, or what... But... I think he's his fav person haha

[liz]

I am Myrtle's #1. Rachel is Rambo's #1. Rachel works out of state all week so Rambo honors me with his contacts. I have had 5 trips now to Florida. Myrtle flies to Rachel while I am gone.
Aunt Betty does not interact with either bird but they know she is easy to beg from so they both go to her when she has food.
Rambo used to hide behind the toilet and jump out and scare Aunt Betty. My Momma died April 8th last year. Rambo believes she went bye bye and did not come back. He had to have a Grandmom so he claimed Aunt Betty for as much as she will tolerate.
They make due with what they have at a time.