Hello from Gili Trawangan, Indonesia

[Tori Taylor]

Hello everyone I am pretty sure I used to be a member of this forum previously...but lots of things have changed so new introduction.
Tori Taylor ex vet tech, animal behaviorist and manager current manager of diving resort and active volunteer vet tech for Cats of Gili.
I live on a very small island in Indonesia called Gili Trawangan and my husband and I imported our three parrots here from the USA. We have acquired another parrot since relocating. Our birds are the only parrots currently here although a few locals have some wild caught lories.
Our island has no motorized vehicles and no dogs but does have an over abundance of feral cats and 4 parrots.

Clara is a scarlet macaw rescue hatched around 2002 are her second and final home. Ducky is a blue front amazon also rescued hatched around 2004. Zari we bought as a hand fed baby Congo African grey, she was hatched 2012. And finally Zander just joined our family being a male vos Eclectus just hatched 3-6-2015

[Pajarita]

Welcome, Tori, Clara, Ducky, Zari and Zander! Quite a diverse family you have there! Are any of them bonded to another?

[Tori Taylor]

No they aren't really closely bonded to each other but are definitely a flock with a hierarchy. They live loose on the same perches and in the same "aviary" room. (Except Zander he is still in a little box being hand fed). All three of the older birds know each other and interact with each other but no real bonding or mutual preening just food throwing, and telling each other to be quiet

[liz]

I have the food throwing thing going on between Rambo and Myrtle. Unless it is a favorite like grapes, they take a few bites and throw it on the floor. I have a clean up crew of 5 housedogs that will eat anything. Sometimes when the dogs are watching them they will pick up some food and throw it to them.

[Pajarita]

I have the food throwing thing going on between Rambo and Myrtle. Unless it is a favorite like grapes, they take a few bites and throw it on the floor. I have a clean up crew of 5 housedogs that will eat anything. Sometimes when the dogs are watching them they will pick up some food and throw it to them.

Liz, you can't allow the dogs to eat grapes (raisins, grape juice, wine, anything made out with grapes actually). They are toxic to their kidneys and they can die of renal failure from it.

[Pajarita]

No they aren't really closely bonded to each other but are definitely a flock with a hierarchy. They live loose on the same perches and in the same "aviary" room. (Except Zander he is still in a little box being hand fed). All three of the older birds know each other and interact with each other but no real bonding or mutual preening just food throwing, and telling each other to be quiet

Yes, my birds tell each other (and the dogs) to shut up but there is one that screams as if in pain when the cockatoo calls - she goes OW OW OW -

Food throwing is a natural behavior part of canope feeders ecological niche but there are no hierarchies in flocks. What there are is birds that are bigger, stronger, younger, smarter, more aggressive or better adapted but it's not a real hierarchy, just a temporary physical superiority of one bird in relation to another bird.

[Tori Taylor]

I am not going to argue your point but I disagree I do think that hierarchies exist in flocks in a household setting. Perhaps not in the wild but I have personally seen too many multi bird households with "flocks" and seen true hierarchies occurring. By this I mean that there was nearly always a "dominant" bird and definitely a "subordinate" bird with others in the middle. This relationship also seems to stay nearly the same unless there are changes like a move or addition or removal of flock members.

As to grapes and raisins being toxic to the kidneys, yes they can be in a very small number of cases. That being said as a veterinary technician of over 26 years I saw only one case of toxicity despite dogs and cats being fed hundreds if not thousands of grapes and raisins. Many DVMs are now beginning to suspect a genetic link to the toxicity. No I wouldn't purposefully feed them to dogs or cats but the quantity "vaccummed" off the bird room floor is not likely to be harmful.

Just my two cents worth

[Wolf]

I wonder... We all fall prey to the we learn what we live scenario. I see it in dogs and cats all the time, same with humans, and to a lesser extent with horses, so I wonder if this is not also the case with our birds. I mean they are ripped from their parents, who would normally teach them proper flock behavior, and we humans who live in a dominance based social structure become their new parents. They are then raised with us in our dominance based social structures and so they may be learning this from us.

[Pajarita]

Well, if that was the case, Wolf, it would imply a mutation because, as far as I know, ethology classifies social structure and its corresponding behavior as FAPs. Parameters and 'proper' behavior are taught to the young but not the actual social group structure.

Now, I think that the confusion arises from the words we use and whether we are listening to ethologists or behaviorists. Hierarchy is always based on dominance but there can be dominance which is not hierarchical in nature. There are dominant birds in a group but it's not a hierarchical position, merely a difference in physical circumstances. A young, strong bird will eat first, pick the choicest bits and prevent the older, weaker bird to get to the food until he is finished but, again, this is not hierarchical dominance, it's just the old 'survival of the fittest' because the older, weaker bird is not really subservient to the dominant and there are no true 'ranks' in between the strongest and the weakest.

[Wolf]

Not really confused, just willing to listen and learn from both sides as I have never had he luxery of observing parrots in their natural environments. I do expect that there would be some dominate birds as it would be unusual for that to not occur. Most everything that I have learned indicates that this dominance is based on individual birds and not a true hierarchy. But since these birds, our companion birds, are taken from their parents before they are taught flock protocols, I don't know the effect of this on their normal hierarchy, so I listen, I ask questions and generally try to learn what I can.
At present there is not enough evidence to change my usual position of that parrots do not live in a dominance based hierarchy, but I have to listen and question, I would not be me if I didn't question everything.