Hi from Malaysia!

[liz]

SnowPhoenix, you are not stupid you are trusting. It is a shame that people abuse birds and treat them like objects to buy and sell. I am so sorry that your birds went through this. I am also sorry that you got a crash course in what humans do. Humans are the worst species.

I did not go in blind but I paid $50 for a bird in a box after dark in a parking lot. I named him Phoenix. I had been told that Phoenix was too ugly to sell. Red Flagg, get that bird. He had the end of one wing shopped off at the joint and it was bloody. It did heal but I think he also has nerve damage there. He was afraid. He just recently started being the first bird to the food and he doesn't care if I am still in the way.

Bless you and your understanding parents for taking them in and keeping them. You have saved their lives.

There are no dumb questions. If a dumb question is possible then I have already asked it.

Where are you that it is so hot?

[Wolf]

Thank you for the information, I only asked because this information can help greatly in providing you with the right answers for the birds well being. Yes, you made some mistakes, but this in no way exonerates the unscrupules individual who spent so much time lying to you. We have them in pet stores here in the USA and they often lie to the people who are new to parrots who want a bird, they are called salespeople. Some of them who sell directly to people are actually the breeders. Oh well, we have all made mistakes and some worse than yours, but we live and hopefully learn to not repeat the same mistakes in the future. Except that yours contains elements of being illegal in your area the story is not so different than what goes on in many places legally.
You will find that many of the people on this site cook for our birds rather than to feed them these commercially made pellets that are full of artificial ingredients that are not healthy for the birds to eat. I feed my birds a mixture of partly cooked whole grains, partly cooked vegetables and fully cooked white beans and lentils, we call this food gloop and you can find several recipes for it in the health and nutrition section. The gloop is a soft food, but I feed it to all of my birds for breakfast and for all day long in addition to fresh raw fruits and vegetables and leafy greens and then feed a seed and tree nut mix for dinner. I feed this way as I feel that it is much healthier than the commercial feeds that I find everywhere.

[SnowPhoenix]

SnowPhoenix, you are not stupid you are trusting. It is a shame that people abuse birds and treat them like objects to buy and sell. I am so sorry that your birds went through this. I am also sorry that you got a crash course in what humans do. Humans are the worst species.

I did not go in blind but I paid $50 for a bird in a box after dark in a parking lot. I named him Phoenix. I had been told that Phoenix was too ugly to sell. Red Flagg, get that bird. He had the end of one wing shopped off at the joint and it was bloody. It did heal but I think he also has nerve damage there. He was afraid. He just recently started being the first bird to the food and he doesn't care if I am still in the way.

Bless you and your understanding parents for taking them in and keeping them. You have saved their lives.

There are no dumb questions. If a dumb question is possible then I have already asked it.

Where are you that it is so hot?

Hi Liz, I'm located in Malaysia (it's the country that's just above Singapore) and temperatures outside can spike up to 36'C during mid-afternoon. My room temp is usually around 28'C or at the very highest, 29'C, in which case all the fans come on. I don't mind keeping my birds flighted but since it's hot all year around, we keep all the windows open, the fans on and I also have a support/therapy dog who happens to be a very curious terrier. Ideally, it wouldn't be wise to allow my birds to fly unsupervised around the house, unless they're in the same room with me.

I'm really sorry to hear about what happened to your Phoenix as well. I thought I went in prepared and confident, but I wasn't. Nevertheless, I'm getting a lot of consultation with my vet so that's good. And Julian my tiel made tremendous progress today - for the first time, he willingly clambered on top of me, sat on my shoulder and begged for some love. I also believe he's finally mite-free, but we need to do another skin scrape to be sure. I'll definitely take him for a check up.

[SnowPhoenix]

Thank you for the information, I only asked because this information can help greatly in providing you with the right answers for the birds well being. Yes, you made some mistakes, but this in no way exonerates the unscrupules individual who spent so much time lying to you. We have them in pet stores here in the USA and they often lie to the people who are new to parrots who want a bird, they are called salespeople. Some of them who sell directly to people are actually the breeders. Oh well, we have all made mistakes and some worse than yours, but we live and hopefully learn to not repeat the same mistakes in the future. Except that yours contains elements of being illegal in your area the story is not so different than what goes on in many places legally.
You will find that many of the people on this site cook for our birds rather than to feed them these commercially made pellets that are full of artificial ingredients that are not healthy for the birds to eat. I feed my birds a mixture of partly cooked whole grains, partly cooked vegetables and fully cooked white beans and lentils, we call this food gloop and you can find several recipes for it in the health and nutrition section. The gloop is a soft food, but I feed it to all of my birds for breakfast and for all day long in addition to fresh raw fruits and vegetables and leafy greens and then feed a seed and tree nut mix for dinner. I feed this way as I feel that it is much healthier than the commercial feeds that I find everywhere.

I used to cook/prepare my own fish food for my marine fish - and they were a lot more healthier than the store-kept fish. I even had locals ask me how I kept my fish so vibrant and healthy.

I'll poke around your nutrition section in this forum - oats and nuts aren't difficult to come by, but wheat (unprocessed) is. On the other hand, we do have a wonderful variety of fruits and veggies over here, so I'll keep reading and researching. That's one of the beauties of any form of pet keeping - it's a constant learning process so you learn something new everytime, everyday.

[Pajarita]

And yes, Pajarita, I am currently feeding him Kaytee's formula (freshly prepared each time) four times a day with this regiment as per my vet's instructions: 18cc in the morning, 15cc in the afternoon, 15cc in the evening and 18cc to 20cc at night.

When the time comes, he'll be weaned accordingly onto fresh fruits & veggies, as well as pellets and some millet and seeds.

You can't feed pre-determined amounts, you need to weigh the bird every morning before you feed it and feed 10% of its body weight so, as it grows, you feed more (the formula should also become thicker as the bird grows to prepare him for solid food). You should also offer soft food so it can start getting used to it and picking on it, if he wants.

Don't worry about the mistakes you made. We all make them in one way or another. The important thing is to learn from them so they are not just a bad thing in the past but the birth of a good one for the future.

Please do more research on diet as we don't really recommend pellets for parrots.

[SnowPhoenix]

Pajarita, I agree on the weighing before feeding but your advice on preparing my almost 5-week-old chick onto soft foods as well as pellets being completely unsuitable for parrots seem to contradict the advice given to me by the majority of members on another forum I frequent to, as well as the advice given to me by my avian vet's. Pellets shouldn't make up the entire diet, but based on my understanding, if the bird accepts it, then it should be offered in minimal amounts. Also, my chick is simply too young to be weaned. According to my research, reading and asking around, conure chicks usually begin weaning between 8 to 10 weeks. It's up to you if you disagree with my statement since I'm considered 'new' to parrotkeeping, but I don't think I'm entirely wrong either.

[liz]

Do you have screens on the windows of your home?

[Wolf]

I am not going to get into the discussion on when you should start the weaning process as it is one of those areas that I have no experience in. But I would like to present what I know concerning pellets and ask that you at least consider the information.
It is very difficult to find pellets that are not full of artificial ingredients such as dyes, some vitamins and minerals, preservatives and sugars. none of these ingredients are good for your bird and are very hard for them to digest. Then the feed manufactures, most of them, use soy as the main source of protein and many birds are allergic to soy and soy products. It is also difficult to know what you are feeding when it is labeled that it contains not less than % of protein or not more than % of fat. Then to top this off pellets are extremely dry for a creature that normally rats food that is 75% water or higher. These are the basic reasons that I choose to cook for my birds, without getting too deep into discussing each item listed. Concerning vets recommendations, they are trying to maintain at least a minimum level of nutrition in a world where everyone is looking for the easy way of feeding their animals and would rather just toss some seeds or pellets in the food dish.
I am new to keeping parrots too, so it does not mean that you know little or a lot, just that you don't have as much experience which could be good or bad experience.

[Pajarita]

Pajarita, I agree on the weighing before feeding but your advice on preparing my almost 5-week-old chick onto soft foods as well as pellets being completely unsuitable for parrots seem to contradict the advice given to me by the majority of members on another forum I frequent to, as well as the advice given to me by my avian vet's. Pellets shouldn't make up the entire diet, but based on my understanding, if the bird accepts it, then it should be offered in minimal amounts. Also, my chick is simply too young to be weaned. According to my research, reading and asking around, conure chicks usually begin weaning between 8 to 10 weeks. It's up to you if you disagree with my statement since I'm considered 'new' to parrotkeeping, but I don't think I'm entirely wrong either.

Yes, you will find that most people will tell you that pellets are the best option (same as you will find lots of people who claim that their bird, kept in a cage all day long by himself is happy). But, in my personal opinion, those people have not done any real research on parrots natural diets or they would not say such a thing. Wild parrots don't eat anything dry. Nothing, zilch, nada! Their diet is plant material and this has a water content between 85 (leaves, buds, flowers) to 95% water (fruits) - pellets have a maximum of 10%. People say that they can always drink more water but parrots are not hard-wired by nature to drink throughout the day or a lot at any given time (they are crepuscular drinkers and they only take a few sips) because they are prey animals which main predator-avoidance mechanism is flight (so they are high up where the predators cannot reach them) so, going to ground and putting their head down to drink from a stream is a VERY dangerous thing to do - so nature evolved them to eat a natural diet that is so high in moisture, they can easily derive the greatest majority if not all their hydration needs from it. This is not my opinion, it's a scientific fact. The problem with feeding dry stuff to an animal which nature evolved with a digestive track designed for high moisture is well known to cat owners who fed just kibble to their cats and ended up with kidney damage (a common problem with pet birds, especially the small species) because of chronic subclinical dehydration (and no, you can't tell if the bird is mildly dehydrated... as a matter of fact, I would be hard pressed to tell if a bird is very dehydrated, much less mildly, without blood work!).

Now, as to nutrition... pellets are, basically, ground up grains so, obviously, feeding them whole grains is not in question, right? The difference between the grains in pellets and the grains we use for the gloop is that 1) our grains are human grade and organic while the only pellet that offers this is Tops, the rest all use feed quality and most are not organic. 2) the pellets grains are raw, ground and dried up - gloop grains are cooked (which makes them more digestible -consider that these grains are not part of their natural diet so making them more digestible is desirable) whole (much more fun for a parrot to eat) and infused with water (so the water content resembles their natural diet much more closely than pellets). Then you have which grains... we don't use soy (Tops don't have soy, either). Soy is, by far, the cheapest source of protein available. It is also a known allergen which has goitropic and estrogenic side effects. Personally, I do not feed soy to any of my animals and, if you do a bit of research about other pets food, like dogs and cats, you will find that only the very cheapest brands have soy -which should make more people think about feeding it to their birds, if you ask me! Same thing with artificial colors, flavors, etc. The pet industry is completely unregulated so we, pet owners, use whatever knowledge we gather from studies to 'move' the industry in the right direction by simply manipulating demand. When people started not buying the food on the shelves and feeding their dogs and cats homemade food because they realized that soy, artificial colors, etc was not good for them, the industry started producing dog and cat food without them - unfortunately, it hasn't quite reached that point with parrots food.

Now, as to vitamins/minerals added to pellets. The only pellets that have natural ones (food-derived) is Tops, all the other ones have man-made ones and there are many studies that tell us that the lab-made ones are not utilized as efficiently by the body PLUS there is a certain synergy which actually increases their efficacy between different ones found in plants which cannot be achieved by lab-made.

Avian vets don't study parrot nutrition. Period. Their text books have the smallest section on avian nutrition - and it's completely understandable as there are 8,700 species of them with completely different diets from nectar to insects to seeds to fish, etc. It would take something the size of the British Encyclopedia to cover them all! The section they do have (I have three avian medicine texts) is mostly geared toward fowl because veterinary medicine is basically split into two different practices: small animals (dogs and cats) and farm animals (which, of course, includes chickens, turkeys, etc) so they teach what most vets would use (remember that parrot keeping is actually a very recent fad, same as avian vets). So, unless they own multiple parrots for a period of time, avian vets don't have any personal experience or formal education on parrot nutrition and mostly go by what the industry tells them. People talk about studies done by Dr. Roudybush and Dr. Harrison's experience but the truth is that the Roudybush studies were extremely short term (11 months to a year) so useless for the long term - and Harrison's based his recipe on chicken feed!

The other problem with pellets is that none is made with exact nutritional values (not even Tops). If you look at the labels, you will see that all of them, without exception, have protein values or 'more than', 'greater than', etc. There isn't a single one that has a value that one can use as reference because 18 is higher than 17 but so is 25% and, if you are feeding, say, an amazon, you can't even feed 17% all year round because that is the protein they need ONLY when breeding. The question that begs asking of manufacturers is WHY? Why can't they give us an exact value when people food all has exact values? Personally, I think it's because soy is cheap and it's less expensive for them to simply make sure there is a minimum amount than an actual one (feed grains are also sold with a minimum protein content -I worked in a grain company for 10 years). Pellets are sold by bird size but an African gray needs more protein than an amazon although it's the same size - and parrots need lower protein during the resting season but there are no season pellets, are there? Protein is necessary for life. But high protein ends up been stored in the liver as a fatty nodule (fatty liver disease) and causes the kidneys to end up with too much uric acid which messes them up.

Last but not least: space! You would say what does space have to do with diet? But it's actually quite obvious once you think about it. Pellets are dry and compressed -picture one of those particle boards made out of compressed sawdust- thereby occupying very little space in the crop and birds always eat enough to fill it up. Now picture the particle board submerged in water for a while... it swells up a lot, doesn't it?. Well, this is another advantage of gloop over pellets! When you feed pellets, you need to measure what you feed all the time or you will end up with a fat bird because the calories in them are 'concentrated' but you can feed as much gloop as they want and more and they will not get fat because they fill up on mostly water (which is what nature intended for their diet to begin with!).

Now, pellets are, by far, the easiest option. No doubt about that! But the easiest is not necessarily the best, is it? I mean, McDonalds is also the easiest option for kids but no responsible parent is going to feed his kid McDonalds all the time... And that is the difference between what most people recommend and what we recommend: the easiest versus the best option.

OK, so I told you why I think that gloop is better than pellets so why don't you tell me why you think that you are not 'entirely wrong' that pellets are the best for a baby bird (and I forgot to mention that pellets are way too hard for a baby to eat comfortably and that, whether you choose gloop as a soft food or not, you still have to offer some kind of soft food)

[SnowPhoenix]

Do you have screens on the windows of your home?

Yes, Liz. I do have mosquito screens on most areas except the kitchen, the living room and the front hall. But I let my tiel out only in my art room so far since I'm afraid he'll either get accidentally hurt by my over-inquisitive dog, or get attacked by the feral cats that roam around my porch.