Pairing two green cheeks whom both have ownership of me

[Pajarita]

...but my interest is more about where we are now and how we improve each parrots life.

YES! Mine too! And that is also the reason why I am sooooo strict when it comes to disseminating the right information about them! Because I firmly believe that one of the main reasons why most parrots suffer in captivity is because the keeper is not well informed as to their needs. The more we know, the better off they will be.

[seagoatdeb]

I am a stickler for the 'right' word. My mother was the same so I come by it honestly . I firmly believe that words have power beyond what we normally attribute to them, and that using the right one is absolutely necessary for our minds to be pointed in the right direction. When we talk about companion animals, dogs, cats, etc -but most importantly parrots- I believe it's essential that we really, really understand their behaviors - the 'where they are really coming from'. The fact is that we all attribute reasons to animal behaviors. The most common is our tendency to anthropomorphize them. It's inevitable, we are humans and our point of reference (the 'measuring stick' if you will) is human behavior so whenever we observe a behavior in an animal, we 'search' in our minds for the closest comparison to it out of what we know: human behavior. Whether the reasons people find for the behaviors is the real reason behind it or not is important would depend on the behavior itself as well as our 'reaction' to it. For example, people used to think that parrots flew up high in order to achieve 'height dominance' over us or that they did not obey us because they wanted to be 'flock leaders'- both explanations to these perfectly natural behaviors implied that the parrots were doing something wrong ('He thinks he is the boss') and that one should try to correct them, that they needed to learn 'parameters' of 'acceptable behavior' for their own sake. Needless to say, this was very confusing and stressful to the poor parrots which had no such motives and were just acting the way that nature programmed them to. Misunderstanding behaviors, attributing the wrong reasons for them or using the wrong words to describe them can make a big difference in the way the parrot keeper treats and regards its bird. And that's why, sometimes, I argue with you. It's not that I think that you are going to be treating your parrots the wrong way, I know you won't, but this is, mainly, a teaching site where a lot of people just lurk and read our postings without asking for clarification or, unfortunately, doing an in-depth research themselves so it behooves all of us to present the right information... or, at least, let's say what we know to be the right information at this point in time.

Like I said before, I am a stickler for the right word and, when you use a word like 'adaptation' next to 'domestication' referring to pet parrots, Seagoatdeb, you are using a word that has a specific scientific meaning, namely a biological one: "any alteration in the structure or function of an organism or any of its parts that results from natural selection and by which the organism becomes better fitted to survive and multiply in its environment". Now, I might be wrong and if I am, I would be grateful if you point me to a good link on it, but, as far as I know, pet parrots have not taken a single step toward domestication, they are still genetically identical to their wild counterparts - there has been no biological adaptation. Why? Because, as we are talking of a captive species, natural selection does not exist and, with the exception of the English budgie, nobody has bred parrots to change anything in their genetic make-up.

You are 100% right that domestication has to start somewhere but in every single case, with the possible exception of the dog, all domesticated species became such through man's genetic engineering. It was never a random thing that happened just because a smart wild animal was captured and kept by humans and started adapting to its new environment on its own. It started by man trapping and keeping wild animals captive (much like we do today with parrots) but the domestication process was never random, coincidental or started by a separate individuals of the species realizing a different strategy or behavior was better for them given the captivity conditions. It was done by taking natural selection out of the picture and breeding only the animals that more closely resembled what man had in mind, until, after many generations of them (always tweaking and honing the desirable traits), the goal was achieved. And so, a bird that only produced 2 clutches of 3 - 7 eggs a year ended up producing over 360 (chickens). A 35 to 50 kg animal with straight, shortish brown hair ends up been 100 to 160 kg with white, kinky hair that never stops growing (sheep). An animal that eats sheep ends up been their protector (dogs). There was planning behind all these changes - and the one planning and acting on it was man. There is no planning behind parrot breeding except for more and more color mutations.

Now, you think that some behaviors can have other explanations and that parrots are too smart to want to have sex with us, that they know they can't - but the importance and implications of imprinting are both a scientific fact, not my opinion. Filial and sexual imprinting in birds and other animals has been widely studied for a long time and is 100% accepted as a survival of the species strategy. It is so strong, in fact, that it has been found that male bird babies would look for females that resemble their own mother when it's time to find a mate. It doesn't only happen with parrots or even birds, either, it happens to many species and that's one of the reasons why zoos choose to use artificial insemination in females that were born in captivity and raised by humans - because they reject the advances of the males of their own species and would display sexual behaviors to their human keepers.

See these:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 5408600091
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v82/n ... 5270a.html
https://dangleason.wordpress.com/avian-biology/172-2/
http://wildlifecenter.org/news_events/n ... -surrogacy

I have personally seen this problem in parrots. Maybe you haven't seen it because you seem to have had only small to medium size species and the size seems to make a big difference (I have never seen it in the small birds and that's why I always say that it's easy to get them to bond with another bird) but it happens way too often in the large ones. In the wild, no parrot is going to choose to be with a different species -much less have sex with it- instead of its own but, in captivity, there are many parrots that not only cannot bond with another of its own species but actually feel threatened and scared by them and would rather be with their human and masturbate on him/her than breed and/or interact in any way with the 'strange' animal. And it's this sexual imprinting that happens when the babies are young and been handfed by humans that makes them want to feed their owner (regurgitating) or be fed by him/her (always going into our mouth with their beak) or displays any other type of courtship (dances) or breeding behavior (masturbation) towards them. It's not an adaptation that starts the road to domestication and something to be celebrated, it's a sad side-effect of the human imprinting we did to them when we handfed them as babies.

You asked for other definitions of domesticate, and since i was using it correctly in my context of meaning I will give you a couple links. it is correct in the way you meant it too, since it is a "big" word with many accepted meanings. So we both come from different thoughts about this, and that is fine, as we both add to the body of information out there. This is not meant to debate but instead to just give you a couple links of the meaning of dometicate, as you asked for.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/domesticate

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/domesticate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_parrot

Also adapt is again a word I used correctly with many meanings, so i will only give one link there are so many out there. Also I do understnd that the large parrtos have more problems as you have outlined, So I am not arguing with what you have said and your well though out and researched viewpoint, only showing my use of the terms.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adapt

[Pajarita]

Yes, both 'domestication' and 'adaptation' have other meanings BUT the fact that you were using them together and in reference to a specific breeding behavior of an undomesticated species kept in captivity, they can only have one meaning, the biological one. We were not talking about taming a wild animal or adapting a book to the screen...

[seagoatdeb]

Yes, both 'domestication' and 'adaptation' have other meanings BUT the fact that you were using them together and in reference to a specific breeding behavior of an undomesticated species kept in captivity, they can only have one meaning, the biological one. We were not talking about taming a wild animal or adapting a book to the screen...

Adapting is any changes and does not apply to only a book to the screen, and there is no reaon i cant use the workds adapt and domestication in the same pargagraph, when talking about parrots.

"The following definitions are mainly due to Theodosius Dobzhansky.

1. Adaptation is the evolutionary process whereby an organism becomes better able to live in its habitat or habitats.[15]
2. Adaptedness is the state of being adapted: the degree to which an organism is able to live and reproduce in a given set of habitats.[16]
3. An adaptive trait is an aspect of the developmental pattern of the organism which enables or enhances the probability of that organism surviving and reproducing.[17]"

Pajarita your way is not the only way to look at things. I do not want to deabate this or have to continue to come up with expamples, to show that your one definition is not the only one, You can have your viewpoint and I can have mine. Can you please tone down your replys and try not to be as condescending when I have only said there are other ways to think about this and I think differently? I have even said you may be right.

[seagoatdeb]

No one always understand another person regardless of the physical form of that other person. But then that is what conversation and communication is all about, at least that is what I think. And that is why we need to listen very closely and not only to what is said but to what is not said. How a thing is said or not said is also of great importance. I may not always understand you but there is no reason for that to interfere unduly as long as we are able to talk and are trying to understand. And in some cases it boils down to a simple understanding that if I am strong enough to allow you to be you and you are strong enough to allow me to be me than we can always come together and be a we.

Personally I do much better with animals than I do with humans as I understand them much better. I am sure that this is not improved by the fact that not everything that I say turns out the way that I intended or that others don't always understand what I am saying in the manner that I meant it.

The nicest thing about animals, is they just accept you, Since we have members from all over the world and all different age groups too, it makes it harder to understand the "context" as easily.

[ParrotsForLife]

No one always understand another person regardless of the physical form of that other person. But then that is what conversation and communication is all about, at least that is what I think. And that is why we need to listen very closely and not only to what is said but to what is not said. How a thing is said or not said is also of great importance. I may not always understand you but there is no reason for that to interfere unduly as long as we are able to talk and are trying to understand. And in some cases it boils down to a simple understanding that if I am strong enough to allow you to be you and you are strong enough to allow me to be me than we can always come together and be a we.

Personally I do much better with animals than I do with humans as I understand them much better. I am sure that this is not improved by the fact that not everything that I say turns out the way that I intended or that others don't always understand what I am saying in the manner that I meant it.

The nicest thing about animals, is they just accept you, Since we have members from all over the world and all different age groups too, it makes it harder to understand the "context" as easily.

Very true ^^