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This is Paulie

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Re: This is Paulie

Postby Pajarita » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:15 pm

Patti, I don't know if what I am going to say will make you feel better (I HOPE SO!) or worse but, my dear, none of us should have pet parrots. It's not you, it's captivity with care dependent on the very complicated lifestyles most people have that is the problem. None of us can actually give pet parrots a GOOD life - we all try our best and some of us are lucky that we don't have to leave the house for work but we all fail in one degree or another. You are trying your best, will continue to do so and I am confident that you will find the way to provide them a good life - even if it means rehoming them (not that I am suggesting you do, mind you!, only that all good owners need to consider the possibility as much as we hate the idea).

Wolf is correct in that, if you work, you will have to be able to get both of them out at the same time and, if at all possible, get them to bond with each other. That way, if you are not home, they have company.

I would also suggest you try to get her to calm down a bit as she sounds a bit anxious... Try some AviCalm mixed with linden tea in her water and see if that, added to the extra time and care doesn't do the trick. Make her fly as much as you can -nothing like flying to dissipate stress hormones from their bloodstream. Oh, and make sure you have a good quality full spectrum light (CRI 94+ and Ktemp closer to 5000 than 5500) for during the day as well as a humidifier (the AC dries up the air something terrible!) and that she eats oats (both the UV and the tryptophan in the oats help with the production of serotonin, the 'happy' hormone).
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Re: This is Paulie

Postby galeriagila » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:22 pm

You are so, so, so right, Pajarita.
It's good to remember that now and then.
Thanks.
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Re: This is Paulie

Postby patti » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:21 pm

Thank you Pajarita - I agree with you and resolved to limit myself to older birds once I figured that out. Later in life, I hope to raise awareness somehow to change the popular conception of the issue. But for now I am simply doing the best I can. I am making her oats right after this post. Have rearranged my schedule so i am gone no more than 3 hours at a time, and when I am here Lily does not leave my sight. I have to leave in ten minutes, and I will keep her out of the cage so she doesn't feel trapped.

I went to the vet yesterday because after I wrote the post on the forum I checked on Paulie, and found that he had gone back to plucking too. Paulie has a long history of plucking so reverting back in and of itself is not cause for alarm. How odd that BOTH birds went to plucking at the same exact time?!? Especially since Lily had no history. He reverted to the nippiness that he had when I first got him, and Lily was biting like she never has before.

I think it is most likely that, like Wolf said, this was building all through the move and just erupted at the same time. The vet agreed, but ran bloodwork. And they are responding to the same environment. The vet suggested that Lily learned these behaviors from watching Paulie, which doesn't surprise me because her stress behavior follows the same pattern as his. His solution was to place her so that she could not see Paulie, which will perhaps keep her from developing these behaviors as a habit.

This will get in the way of them bonding. It was always my hope that the two of them would bond, but as of yet Lily's jealousy has gotten in the way of that. They are fine being out together and I haven't needed to watch them closely for a long while. But if they are going to bond, I am going to have to trick them into it.
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Re: This is Paulie

Postby Wolf » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:12 am

While I do agree with your vet that Lily may have learned these particular behaviors by watching Paulie do them ( they are all known for mimicking each other), I do not agree that blocking them from seeing each other will do anything good. I feel that it will only increase their stress levels and result in them calling for each other most of the time. It may not, but you might want to try it and make up your own mind, I have been wrong before.

If they are good with being out of their cages together then that may be the best that you can hope for. No one knows why one parrot will bond to one parrot but not with another. Sometimes a flock bond is the best that you can hope for. I really don't think that you can trick them into forming a closer bond, I think that only time and familiarity can get them to bond closer.
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Re: This is Paulie

Postby Pajarita » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:00 am

Hmmmm, I don't know if I believe that one parrot learns plucking from another one... Personally, I have never seen this happen - I've had a number of pluckers and the only birds that started plucking with me had a good 'personal' reason for it. Right now, I have a male Senegal which plucks housed with a female Senegal which doesn't and, if anything, the plucker is getting better. I also have a cockatoo that came not only completely plucked but with his primaries barbered all the way to the skin and not only the other cockatoo is not doing it, the plucker is getting better, too. And, if you think about it, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Plucking is a form of mutilation in that is a completely aberrant behavior and it causes pain. Parrots only resort to it when extremely stressed out -usually emotionally and not physically- so although I can see why both of them are plucking now (the move, the change in schedules and routines, the short one-on-one time, etc), I don't think this is a learned behavior but just a consequence of the situation. What I do believe is that certain birds are emotionally more fragile than others... maybe because of inbreeding, maybe because of been taken too early from their parents, maybe because of not treated with love and care by the breeder, I don't know exactly why but there is no doubt in my mind that some are more prone than others. Some will take a stressful situation and overcome it while others can't. They are like people... two persons, confronted with the same stressful situation, would react completely different. One would overcome it on its own and the other would get depressed and need medical help.

Personally, I would not separate them. I think it would be one more different thing and that it will add to the stress - and this is a time when things need to be as stress-free as possible.
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Re: This is Paulie

Postby Wolf » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:20 am

None of my birds have learned to pluck from watching one another. Kookooloo came here plucking and stopped for a while then started again this spring and is once again improving, but none of my other birds have picked up on it. Still if you have a bird that stresses enough to begin plucking, it could be possible to pick it up from another bird, but I don't actually have any evidence that this is so.
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Re: This is Paulie

Postby patti » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:03 pm

When I first got Paulie, I asked my old avian vet if it was ever possible that Lily would learn how to pluck from watching him, and he said no. The vet I saw yesterday was also an avian vet, but appeared to be less of a behavioral specialist than the previous one so I am inclined to agree with you, Wolf.

From watching Lily very closely since this started, it appears to me that her current stressors are the following, which I have immediately addressed:

1. abandonment, loneliness. I have addressed this by leaving her alone the absolute minimum - all shopping after dusk, for example. Work knows I have a "sick kid" and have to stay home more.
2. fear - she is afraid of her new surroundings and the change was overwhelming. but on top of that there are all sorts of animal noises that frighten her... she is afraid of the blue jays, for example, who screech all day long. dogs barking. cats coming around. rats crawling on the roof at night, squirrels during the day. i have woken up in fear several nights since moving in here because of the new noises. then when she is locked in her cage and I am not home, this fear escalates even more. so i leave her cage door open and fixed up my office to be bird safe so she can fly around when I am not home. that made a HUGE difference in her attitude immediately, which i noticed when I came home after my afternoon class. now she can fly away when the jays cackle outside, or a squirrel runs across the roof.
3. dry skin. we used to live near the ocean, now we are in a hot desert climate. very dry. and she is in the middle of a massive molt, doesnt want to bathe, and obviously very uncomfortable. she doesn't like the water bottle so i was avoiding it before, but now i am going to sneak in a daily spritz until i can get a humidifier. and really stepping up on my efforts to get her to bathe.

the stress became more unbearable two weeks ago when the molt picked up speed, but I am not sure if the tipping point was the discomfort from the molt, or fear from the day before when I barely got home by dusk and they had to suffer the dusk-time animal noises in their day cages and alone. And she hasn't eaten normally for the last few days, since this started, so I am not 100% sure I have found the problem. Also hard to guage because Paulie's fractured beak explains his bad attitude, making it hard to compare his stress levels with Lily's on the environmental issues. And he is used to moving around - moving from human to human and place to place. So his situation is different. But I am hopeful.
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Re: This is Paulie

Postby patti » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:09 pm

I just saw the other two posts on here about separating the birds.... before I leave for my afternoon meeting I will wheel Paulie into the bird room with Lily. But for today I will keep him in the cage, since he is less able to defend himself should an altercation arise.

They would probably be okay to both be out, but I don't want to chance it...

Lily was born in a bird mill and purchased from a large chain store. The day she arrived at the store (in a cardboard box by plane) she bit the attendant who opened the box so hard that it went all the way down to the bone.
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patti
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Re: This is Paulie

Postby Pajarita » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:47 am

Oh, poor, poor baby! She must have been terrified and so very confused... I hate pet stores, bird mills and any breeder that ships!
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Re: This is Paulie

Postby patti » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:02 pm

Since the day that Lily pulled her feathers out I have been working nonstop on this problem and I have already seen a lot of improvement. To be honest, the most difficult thing has been prioritizing among all these things to do, given that I have so many potential causes!

Today's task is to work on dry skin, and I could use some suggestions on this one. The new house is in a desert. It is over 90 or 100 most days here and it won't rain for another couple months. To top it off, I can't seem to get the birds to bathe at all. I bought a spray bottle...no go. fill the bathtub or sink with a bit of water with dripping faucets, toys, and ladder (Lily's used-to-be favorite)...no go. large dish in the cage or anywhere else... no go. I try every couple days. everything i read says not to force them, so i just keep bringing them to water but not making them drink, so to speak. i am also working on the bird room today, and will go out to get a humidifier for it in a little bit. anyone have suggestions as to the bathing?
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patti
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