New to the Parrot ownership world!

[Pajarita]

I don't use any coconut oil. I don't like things that are not natural and coconut oil, as natural as it sounds, it's not something that you actually find in nature. I also don't like to feed them anything that is high in saturated fat (which, again, coconut oil is).

I also don't feed them a whole lot of kale. I do add some of the blue curly one to the gloop but very little because of the high iron and sorbitol content (I only use the blue curly one because it's the lowest in sorbitol) and I only give it to them as the daily green once every two weeks or so (and I don't give it to any of my liver-damaged birds).

Green pepper an energy food? I have never heard of such a thing. Why would they consider a vegetable as innocuous as a green pepper high energy? Parrots high energy food is protein and carbs but green peppers have a glycemic index of only 40 which means that even though it has sugars, the fiber is so high that it actually makes it a great diet food (only 30 calories in an entire cup!) and it's so low in protein to be practically useless. I would be curious as to why anybody would think that raw green peppers are high energy food...

I applaud you for joining a group that teaches about parrot nutrition but I would recommend you use the information only as a first step and do your own research on everything. There are a lot of well-intentioned people when it comes to parrot care but, sometimes, they either don't understand nutrition correctly or just repeat something they read or heard without making sure the information is factually correct.

[Jesscat]

Thank you! The thing is Joe is usually hungry, likes to beg for food, and freaks out for food. She also eats anything. I just want to make sure I'm doing it rite. I am going to try the gloop today. I just think that she thinks she is hungry all the time. Im glad the green bell pepper is healthy for her she liked that.

[Pajarita]

My dear, please, please, please take her to an avian vet and request a bile acids test. This is the second time you make such a comment and parrots are never hungry all the time and they don't freak out for food, either. They are actually incredibly picky eaters that need A LOT of encouragement and sneakiness on our part to eat a good, balanced diet with a large range of foods. In my personal experience, the only parrots that are hungry all the time are the ones with advanced liver disease... I am not trying to scare you and I am not saying this is the case with your bird (it might be just your impression, she might be begging for attention instead of food or she might not be eating as much as you think she is -are you weighing her regularly?) but, with parrots, it pays to know for sure if their liver is OK because it's their number one weakness.

[seagoatdeb]

Thank you! The thing is Joe is usually hungry, likes to beg for food, and freaks out for food. She also eats anything. I just want to make sure I'm doing it rite. I am going to try the gloop today. I just think that she thinks she is hungry all the time. Im glad the green bell pepper is healthy for her she liked that.

In a one year old Poi and at this time of the year they can be constantly hungry, especially if they are very active. Dont worry about liver disease in a one year old parrot. They always want to eat what you are eating too and will carry on like they are starving...lol They wont eat when they are full, my Red Belly, will just suck on food, like an apple for example if she is full, if she is hungry she devours it. She can be picky though. My one year old Meyers is always acting like he is hungry too. If I eat something that is not what he can eat, he will even come over and try to taste in from my lips....lol. he has to have what everyone has.

[Wolf]

I can't dispute the facts that there may be some liver damage in your bird for the simple reason that my medical texts state that whenever a bird is on a poor diet such as an all seed or pelleted diet that there will be liver damage. In the case of such a young bird the question is really not whether there may be some liver damage, but how much liver damage there is. The good news is that the liver is a large organ and can sustain quite a bit of damage before failing and if the diet is improved then in many cases the liver is also one of the few organs that is capable of healing itself. While I could be wrong, it seems to me that given the age of your bird and without any other indications of possible liver damage that your bird is unlikely to have suffered enough damage to be worried about it. There are period of time with all young animals when they will appear to eat much more than it seems possible for them to eat, but one needs to bear in mind that the bird is growing and that there are many changes going on in its body. You bird is probably fine, or at least I think so.

Some of the behaviors that you are describing could be attributed to the bird wanting more attention. The eating and sharing of food is a social as well as a bonding activity for parrots and even more so when they are young.

If you are concerned that there is some liver damage then it seems to me that the very best thing that you can do for your bird is to improve its diet with fresh raw fruits and vegetables, some sprouted seeds, which are changed by the sprouting, and in my opinion the addition of a food such as chop or gloop to its diet and to add four or five drops of milk thistle to the soft foods as a detoxifier. I, really do not think that there are enough indicators of any serious level of liver disease.

I could have posted this sooner, but I wanted to go back and check out the information that I had before saying anything one way or the other. Both Pajarita and Seagoatdeb have much more experience with birds and nutrition than I have and I try to listen to both of them and then I do my own research and then make my decisions taking into account all of the information in accord with my understanding of it and that is what I tried to do with the information as posted concerning your bird.

I am not a vet but I hope that my opinion will help to ease your mind as well as be helpful to you and your bird.

[Pajarita]

Seagoatdeb, it seems to me that your advice to disregard the fact that the bird is always hungry could backfire for the owner because, for one thing, nobody really knows how old the bird is or what were her previous living circumstances. Below is what I considered when giving my advice:

1. The OP doesn't really know how old the bird is as it has no closed leg band with a hatch year on it. A breeder of plets who sold this bird to her told her he 'thought' the bird was one year old (something nobody can tell once a bird becomes an adult so it appears to have been more a marketing tool than an actual estimation of the bird's age).

2. The fact that the bird is, at least, on its third owner makes the 1 year old label even iffier.

3. The fact that the bird has been plucking for a while makes the 1 year old label iffiest.

4. A plucking bird that is ALWAYS hungry is a reason for concern by itself.

5. But, even if the bird was only one year old, it doesn't mean it cannot have liver problems as it's not only a bad diet that causes it. Birds that had psittacosis as babies, for example, would have liver damage same as birds that are born with congenital problems (we had a member's five month old bird dying from a congenital condition that had not been known prior to the onset of severe weight loss) or even birds that have taken large and/or too often dosages of strong medicines (like antifungals, for example, which is easy to overdose when given to babies, a common practice for slow crop) end up with liver damage.

6. And this is not criticism in any way but a statement of fact: the OP doesn't seem to have a lot of experience with parrots and we all know how difficult it is to identify symptoms in parrots even for people with A LOT of experience so, personally, I think that playing it safe is the best advice one can give.

7. The bile acid test is the ONLY way to determine whether there is malfunction or not and it's not that expensive (around $80) so, personally, I would think that it's more than worth it under the circumstances - if, for nothing else, peace of mind.

[seagoatdeb]

Seagoatdeb, it seems to me that your advice to disregard the fact that the bird is always hungry could backfire for the owner because, for one thing, nobody really knows how old the bird is or what were her previous living circumstances. Below is what I considered when giving my advice:

1. The OP doesn't really know how old the bird is as it has no closed leg band with a hatch year on it. A breeder of plets who sold this bird to her told her he 'thought' the bird was one year old (something nobody can tell once a bird becomes an adult so it appears to have been more a marketing tool than an actual estimation of the bird's age).

2. The fact that the bird is, at least, on its third owner makes the 1 year old label even iffier.

3. The fact that the bird has been plucking for a while makes the 1 year old label iffiest.

4. A plucking bird that is ALWAYS hungry is a reason for concern by itself.

5. But, even if the bird was only one year old, it doesn't mean it cannot have liver problems as it's not only a bad diet that causes it. Birds that had psittacosis as babies, for example, would have liver damage same as birds that are born with congenital problems (we had a member's five month old bird dying from a congenital condition that had not been known prior to the onset of severe weight loss) or even birds that have taken large and/or too often dosages of strong medicines (like antifungals, for example, which is easy to overdose when given to babies, a common practice for slow crop) end up with liver damage.

6. And this is not criticism in any way but a statement of fact: the OP doesn't seem to have a lot of experience with parrots and we all know how difficult it is to identify symptoms in parrots even for people with A LOT of experience so, personally, I think that playing it safe is the best advice one can give.

7. The bile acid test is the ONLY way to determine whether there is malfunction or not and it's not that expensive (around $80) so, personally, I would think that it's more than worth it under the circumstances - if, for nothing else, peace of mind.

Pajarita, this parrot is a young parrot, the op said one year old, and vet appoinments are very scary for young parrots. An extra vet appointment, thinking there is liver damage, because the OP said the young parrot is acting hungry is to me a little obsessive, and also an unnecessary expense. Also the OP said her parrot was a pied Senegal, and it was you that said it was plucking based on that pic that looked to me like all the pied Senegals pic and Meyers/Senegal crosses i have seen pics of and no plucking. But should there be anymore espisodes of falling then I would recommend it.

[Wolf]

I went back through this entire post with special attention to the posted pictures. Unfortunately I can see both sides of this issue. Still the bird may be a young bird of less than 5 years of age as its eyes are still dark. This may or may not mean anything as they may not change if it turns out to be a blue eyed Senegal or if the color mutation is due to cross breeding, but should still be noted, I think. When looking at the pictures I do see a highly stressed bird, again in my opinion, with evidence of at least barbering if not actual plucking. But given what it sounds like this bird has been through, I would also be highly stressed for a while too.

As everyone else, I am concerned with the falling as it could signify neurological issues which may or may not be due to a liver problem. But given the severity of the clipping it is also possible that the clipping could be responsible for this and I have not heard that there has been a repeat of the falling. Still I am concerned and am waiting to hear more from the OP.

Given that the OP appears to be more inexperienced than some of us and is worried about her bird it is very possible that she has misread the birds reactions. We all know that this begging for food may not be about the food itself but about attention and the need for the comfort of closeness to its human. Some of this type of begging will occur whether there is food available or not, but I am sure that much of it will also occur whenever the bird sees that its human has food. The sharing of food is a very important aspect of the birds bonding and sense of security and this alone, if the OP is not familiar with this may further lead to misunderstanding what the bird is asking for.

The bird is gaining weight which does not suggest a liver issue and I really don't see much in the way of symptoms of liver disease for this bird, but I also recognize that many of the symptoms don't manifest until there is a substantial amount of liver damage. I also recognize the possibility of genetic defects caused by poor breeding practices. How could I not when we have read of several birds that were lost due to this, but I don't recall that most of them had liver problems as the cause of death.

I agree that as pertains to the birds health that it is better to be safe than sorry, and while I can not dispute that the OP should consider a bile acids test for her bird, I would also think that if she would detox the birds liver with milk thistle( 100% organic alcohol free), and if she will change the birds diet by reducing the amount of protein, fats and carbs that this could be put off until the birds next check up instead of subjecting it to any additional stress at this time. From what I have read so far on this forum as well as on others and from what I find in my reference books it is very doubtful that the vet will do much more than what I have just suggested. So if for the time being she treats this bird as if it might have a liver problem then the knowing for certain if the bird has a liver problem could wait until the bird has less stress and more trust in its new human.

This course of action does not ignore the possibility of a liver problem as it actually treats the bird for it in a manner that is beneficial to the bird and that as far as I am aware of does no harm to the bird. I will say that if the bird is as young as it is said then liver issues are more unlikely but can not be ruled out by age alone. This birds diet needs to be changed for the better, which everyone agrees about and the bottle of Milk thistle is only about 12 to 13 dollars and will last for quite a while for just one bird and waiting on the bile acids test until the birds next check up as long as the OP is watching the bird for any more or other symptoms, which we all do each day will help to reduce the birds stress which is also a part of the liver treatment that the vet would advise in the case of a liver issue.

Well, I suppose that I could be wrong with this, my opinion, but I do think that except for actually doing the bile acids test that it pretty much covers all of the bases for a liver problem so although I am not as experienced as others here that is what I would do, based on what I do know.

[Pajarita]

Pajarita, this parrot is a young parrot, the op said one year old, and vet appoinments are very scary for young parrots. An extra vet appointment, thinking there is liver damage, because the OP said the young parrot is acting hungry is to me a little obsessive, and also an unnecessary expense. Also the OP said her parrot was a pied Senegal, and it was you that said it was plucking based on that pic that looked to me like all the pied Senegals pic and Meyers/Senegal crosses i have seen pics of and no plucking. But should there be anymore espisodes of falling then I would recommend it.

Seagoatdeb, the OP does not know how old the parrot is, it has no closed leg band ("So the trainer said she could be around a year old.."). It was not me who said the bird was plucking, it was the OP ("He said Joes feathers were in really bad shape so was her Beak." "When the trainer rescued her from the house with the African grey she had a really bad beak and a lot of her feathers were missing"). And note the 'bad beak' that needed to be trimmed! ("I just got her wings, beak, and nails done" - and we all know that, when there is no malformation, the only reason why parrots need beaks trimmed is liver malfunction).

Wolf, it's not only begging behavior, apparently, it's eating ("She is eating way to much I feel like" "The thing is Joe is usually hungry, likes to beg for food, and freaks out for food. She also eats anything"). As to gaining weight, the bird has not been actually weighed, it was just a feeling the OP had ("I feel like because she is clipped now she is gaining weight") but, even if she has gained, this is not an indication of no liver damage. It's only on the very last stages (and when nothing can be done) of liver damage that birds cannot gain weight no matter how much they eat.

And I am not even mentioning her falling off the perches which could be due as much to neurological impairment from the accumulation of ammonia in the brain due to liver malfunction as the fact that she has 'bad' feet and was clipped, possibly for the first time in her life.

Now, I have had, unfortunately, lots and lots of hands-on experience with liver damage birds. Most due to a bad diet but one due to aflatoxicosis and another to chlamydiosis (aka psittacosis) and, personally, I would not even consider not doing a bile acid test on every single bird that has ONE single symptom as well as on all the ones that are older or that I know for a fact they have had a bad diet for a while. And the same thing I do for my birds it's what I recommend to everybody else. Because, in my personal experience, the bile acids is the ONLY thing that can save the bird when done in time and neither the stress of taking a bird to the vet nor the cost (which is quite inexpensive, if you think about it) warrant the risk. The bird that died from aflatoxin poisoning actually got his CBC and chem panel come out with normal values three times (THREE TIMES!!!) after he started showing symptoms (lethargy, constant hunger, weight loss). I kept on taking him to the avian vet (a professor of avian medicine in PennU, by the way), telling him there was something wrong with him and he kept on telling me the bird was OK, that all the blood results were fine. If there is one thing you can say about me is that I learn my lessons and that is one lesson that I try to avoid other people from learning the hard way like I did. I will never forgive myself for taking that avian vet's word and not doing more research on my own because, if I had, I would have found out those were liver malfunction symptoms and about the bile acids test... Who knows? Maybe if I had had it done as soon as I got him, I might have been able to give him a better and longer life.

So, call me 'over cautious' if you want. Most likely (and I sincerely hope!), the bird is fine but, if it isn't, a measly $80 test could save the bird's life so I don't see how not doing it could ever be the right way to go.

[liz]

Rambo and Myrtle beg for what I am eating as much as the dogs. No matter how full they are they still want mine. I have had to use "mine" when there is no way they are going to get it. If I don't share they will try stealing. All Myrtle got before coming to me was seed. She watched Rambo on what to eat for a long time but then decided what I had must be good.

Although begging is normal for mine if they were doing anything out of character I would take them to a Vet. Better safe than sorry. I have liver damage and would not wish it on anyone. Please take it to an avian vet to be sure it is okay.