Hi, I am a bird nerd

[Vmax3000]

My name is Vanessa. My spouse and I are the proud slaves of a yellow sided green cheeked conure and a black capped conure. We adopted the gcc, Gus, from a couple who had just had a baby about 2 years ago. He was 5 months old and feisty. He's still feisty. I recently took him to our avian vet because I thought I noticed a plucked place on his leg, not to mention that he'd been regurgitating like mad (did I mention that I am really REALLY new to bird slavery). The vet and vet tech both smiled, asked a series of questions, and explained Gus was getting randy. They suggested a buddy, if we had the time and inclination. I discussed this scenario with spousal unit, and we acquired Max, the black capped conure, from a breeder (about three weeks ago, he was weaned and fledged). Everyone warned that Gus might not take to Max. They have separate, but equal cages and eat Roudybush, California style, and lots of fresh fruits and veggies. Occasionally, they get some cooked oatmeal before I doctor eat for my consumption. Max HATES Gus....I am floored. Max bites like a cute little monster, and I use dowels to get him to step up. He's gotten really good at stepping up. I've gotten a copy of the clicker training book by Melinda Johnson. Both birds are terrified of the clicker. I fear I will lose fingers and/or earlobes prior to Max growing out of this biting phase.
We have a completely baffled cat and an aquarium full of fish (Gus' favorite "show"). My spouse works as an aerospace engineer and I teach college chemistry courses. We race cars (Grand Prix style racing). I raise orchids and am mad for these two little birds. That pretty much does it. I've lurked, which is where I learned about the clicker training AND the dowels, so now, it's time to come out of the shadows.

[Wolf]

First of all, the vet should have done a better job of explaining what was going on with Gus as well as what your options were and how they worked to help both you and Gus. While getting Gus a friend and possible mate is actually a good thing for Gus, it does nothing to help Gus at this time. Please bear with me and I will try to explain, it will take me much longer to type this out than it will take for you to read.

Since you went with the option of trying the get a buddy for Gus route, let's start with that. Max is also a conure, which is a good thing and on top of that Max's species has been known to mate with Gus's species in the wild, so species wise they are definitely compatible. I don't know if this was the result of your doing research, but I suspect that it is. Also a good thing. Now for the flip side of the same coin, Both of them are males, at least going by their names, I do not know if you had them DNA tested to determine their sexes or not and since I do not have any conures myself, I can't say for sure how well two males will eventually get along. Still the best match would have been a female and of an appropriate age. These last two are the reason why they are not getting along, with the age difference being the primary reason for this.

It is much more likely that Max is afraid of Gus than it is that he hates him. At Max's age the only parrots that he would normally be exposed to are either his siblings or his parents as he would remain with his parents until he goes through puberty at which time he becomes an adult and begins looking for his very own mate. This is where Gus is at, basically. as they mature between the ages of 1 to 3 yrs. Most of them go through puberty at around two years of age, so that is what I mean by basically, he is probably going through puberty and even if Max were a female, Gus would have no use for him at this time because Max is still a juvenile and Max is looking for a young female to mate with. All of this could change when Max goes through puberty and also becomes an adult and at that time they could easily accept each other as flock mates and become buddies at that time.

In the meantime while you are waiting for this to occur, both of these birds need to be placed on a solar light schedule where they are exposed to the first light in the sky before dawn and on through dawn with exposure to the sunshine, not direct sunlight, through the day and then exposure to the twilight period we call dusk and on to full dark when they should both go to sleep. Both of the twilight periods beginning with the one at dawn and the one at dusk need to occur with no artificial lights on. These two periods are different than the light of any other time of the day as the properties of the light are determined by the curvature of the earth itself and they set and reset the birds internal biological clock which then signals the pituitary and pineal glands in the birds brain to start the bird producing sexual hormones.

If you start on this light schedule now as well as lowering the amount of protein and fat in their diet, you may be able to have Gus go out of breeding mode shortly and then only have to deal with this once a year as would be normal. If not then you will probably have to deal with a more aggressive bird until his system is brought back into sync with the seasons.

While there are a couple of drugs that are sometimes used for this their effect is temporary and they are very hard on the birds internal organs. The diet and the right light schedule are at present the only effective long term cure for this in birds.

They remaining issues that you have described are because you are not allowing Max to adjust to his environment or taking the time to earn his trust before asking anything of him, instead you are relying on training to do this and while training can help to deepen a bond, it does not create it. Right now Max needs you to be his friend and to have you spend a lot of time around him talking to him and offering him treats and nothing more until he begins to relax with you and begins to look forward to you coming to talk with him. I will take this up in more depth in my next reply, unless someone else picks this up and explains the best way to proceed with Max to you before I get back to you.

[Pajarita]

Welcome to the forum, Vanessa, Max and Gus! Wolf is correct in the need for the solar schedule (it also requires full exposure to dawn and dusk without any artificial lights on) and the reduction of protein and fat but this must be done during the cold weather months and not right now. What you might want to consider is not feeding them pellets. GCCs and black-capped are mainly fruit eaters in the wild so the pellets are really not the best dietary option for them (they are not for any parrot but less so for fruit eaters). Have you provided Max with a safe place to hide? Also, are you feeding him soft foods? Because all breeders will tell you that the babies are weaned but, in reality, they hardly ever are (how old is he, exactly?). As to his biting, it's like Wolf told you, he is not aggressive, he is scared. Babies need A LOT of attention (I am talking hours and hours and hours, just like any other baby of any species) and, when you buy them, you need to take into consideration that you will need to spend a number of days at home with him or he will be completely terrified. There is no worse experience for a baby than to lose his family and familiar home, put in a strange place with strange people and then left alone for hours and hours - I don't know if this was the case but, if it was, I suggest you take a few days off so you can bond with him properly. Parrots are VERY difficult animals to keep as pets... When it comes to time and work, I would rather have 20 dogs than a single parrot

[Vmax3000]

Hi fellow bird folks,
Okay. Yes, I tried to do some research on bird compatabilities - size, their personalities, and our personalities. That's how I came across this site...there's not a lot out there beyond the occasional scientific paper, and those aren't always helpful to the amateur. Yes, they are both DNA sexed. I got Max after the spring semester ended. He had hatched in late February or early March....I will check that to be sure. Max had learned to fly and, according to the breeder, he was fully weaned...again, I'll ask her.
Food stuff: I have read so much of what both of you have posted to others and found your posts, along with Michael's blog to be hugely helpful. So, food....Gus had been on a seed diet when he came to us. The vet and vet tech (she has a bird rescue for LARGE parrots) both recommended much less seed, and to move towards the pelleted food, supplemented with fresh and cooked veggies and fruits. Needless to say, Gus improved our diet, as I introduced him to leafy greens and cooked sweet potatoes and slices of apple, grapes, pomegranates, carrots....the list goes on - no avocado or chocolate or any thing that would risk his health that I have read about. Gus still isn't the biggest fan of fresh foods. He takes the little slices and throws them to the ground . He still gets them, even if I do end up mopping or sweeping most of them. I have tried cooking steel cut oats, 7 grain cereals, etc and offering little cooled globs to Gus (and now, to Max). Gus still turns up his nares to them, or slings it everywhere...I really do love this little bird....no sarcasm intended. I tried to find out what "gloop" was, and it seemed like it was cooked hot cereal...I have been known to misread/misunderstand though, and would happily try a recipe, if you have a link/recommendation. If they like it, I'll serve it! Even if they don't, I'll still be consistent with it
Max has been a million times easier on the food front. He's been eating predominantly fresh since he was weaned, according to my breeder's information..and his behavior seems to indicate that. He readily takes fresh leaves of lettuce and any fresh food I offer him. He loves cooked sweet potato and willingly gobbles the cooked cereal (cooled, of course). Needless to say, his enthusiasm for fresh has meant that Gus gets even more opportunities and exposures to new foods.
I got Max at the end of the spring semester with the intention of spending a lot of waking hours with him and Gus. That has been the last 3 weeks of my life (Max came home with me on May 9th). After reading your replies, along with Michael's approach to settling in the new bird, we have suspended the training. I do sing and read to my little birds, and visit with them. I'd take them to work, but college students don't always take care of themselves, so I want to minimize the birds' exposure to any ill nasty, especially flu!
One of my colleagues has taken ill, so I am picking up his summer course. It started today. I am home now, being mobbed by little feathery bodies. Gus wants my attention. Max bobs up and down and lifts his foot when I come near his cage. He's on the play top, tearing up something. I read about your Senegal, Wolf....conure bites are painful, but nothing like what you have dealt with. Max has also started this regurgitating behavior that I had been observing in Gus until recently. He tends to do it when he is on his cage and i am visiting with him. Ideas?
Bedtime is when the sun goes down...that"s around 8:30 here, but deeper into summer, that will near 9pm. Their cages are uncovered when sunlight streams through the closest window. It's not perfect, but we've seen good responses to it from both birds.
I really appreciate your input, both of you. I am torn between wanting all of these beautiful creatures to be visited in their native habitats, and enjoying their companionship. Gus LOVES my husband, and adores my mother (she thinks Gus is a riot, and enjoys that he prefers her to me....makes me giggle, in my own little envious way).
Thank you for your helpful welcome. I am looking forward to gleaning as much as I can to provide my feathered friends the best life I can offer.
Vanessa

PS, I think I got most of the inquiries answered, but will reply again, once I have heard from Max's breeder for sure!

[Pajarita]

My dear, please don't take this the wrong way but asking a breeder if what she/he told is true is useless. It's like asking a car salesman if the car he sold you was in good running condition! Parrot breeders are not bird lovers, if they were, they would not be selling the babies to whoever has the money to pay for them. Breeding birds for money is a business where the breeding birds are the stock and the babies the merchandise and moving them out fast is what they need to do so asking the breeder who sold you a 'weaned' bird if the bird was actually weaned is a waste of time because the only answer he/she will give you is "Of course it is!"

Avian vets do not study parrot nutrition. And I do mean nothing, zero, zilch, nada! I have avian medicine text books and, although there is an avian nutrition chapter, it is very generalized and very small for the simple reason that, when you talk about 'avian', you are talking chickens, ducks, eagles, canaries, vultures, etc. and not only parrots. So, when it comes to parrot diets, they go by what they hear and what they consider the lesser evil so they recommend pellets. Please do research on your own and go to nature, see what they eat in the wild and take into consideration that, when you see seeds listed as part of their natural diet, they are referring to green seeds (higher moisture than the ones we can feed them).

In any case, It's always recommended to provide a parrot with soft food so making two kinds instead of one is not really that onerous, don't you think?

[Vmax3000]

[quote="Pajarita"]My dear, please don't take this the wrong way but asking a breeder if what she/he told is true is useless. [quote]
Although your greeting sounds rather patronizing, I will opt to believe that you said it with nothing but the best of spirit. I wasn't going to ask her about truth, but about the hatch date. She keeps records, and is quite reputable. She helped me with Gus when she had nothing to gain. I'm not saying she's a saint, but even the used car salesman has to feed his kids (or I'd like to hope, rather than suspect...requires less energy on my part).

Also, I fear that I may have sold my vet short (well, maybe not on the nutrition front, I am open to other suggestions). She has been a good resource and a kind soul. I have to have things I am learning repeated...A LOT. She said much more than I am letting on, because, like my students, I hear what I am capable of hearing at the time. I was so relieved that Gus wasn't plucking and I hadn't already "ruined" him that much of what she said slipped through. That's part of what brought me here. Also, I picked up quite a bit from the owners of Windy City Parrot.

I am familiar with mammalian livestock, mostly. I worked around a chicken coop and a turkey coop, but didn't really have birds as pets. It's mostly been dairy cows, horses, dogs, cats, and the occasional rodent type of creature (as a descriptive, not an insult). One of my husbands friends from college had a Yellow Headed Amazon....loudest creature I have ever had the pleasure of being deafened by. His father had a bird rescue, and Robert acquired Avery from his dad back when we were in college (the earth's crust had recently cooled...). Whenever Robert had to be out of town on business, or had an out of town vacation, I got to sit with Avery...squawks and bites and the very visible eye flashing...that bird was absolutely amazing to me and he taught me quite a bit. I fell in love with him. Robert didn't know how old he was, but his behavior was such that he may have been poorly treated, probably misunderstood, by someone in his past. Now, Avery has long since passed, but I got to spend at least a month with him every year for almost a decade, when I think back on it. I knew he was loud, and not everyone is fond of the demands of bird care. I confess that I was surprised at how much I enjoyed Avery, especially since I was more used to animals capable of lactation (chickens and turkeys, aside). I was unaware of how affectionate birds could be and how much more personality they had...even the chickens were interesting, but I had so much else to do that I didn't get to sit with them and observe and "hang out". I don't claim to be an expert, but I am capable of learning, and I've worked with PhD scientists, so I am a decent judge of character. I want to learn from you, but I won't have the bullying or patronizing stuff. It's not worth my time to participate in that kind of stuff. My life is short, and I want to fill it with feathers and happy squawks and messes and just enjoy learning from my buddy birds. If this isn't the place to do that, I won't waste any more of anyone's time.

[Wolf]

I like the owners of Windy City, they have shared a lot of useful information and I know that they love their bird, Popcorn.

Gloop is a home cooked food that many of us feed our birds in addition to a seed mix or pellets. There are many different versions of it as I changes based on things like what is available to you when you go shopping for ingredients. Regardless of the actual ingredients in mine I always use the same formula which is 40% half cooked whole grains, 40% fresh and/ or frozen mixed vegetables and 20% fully cooked navy beans and lentils. My birds seem to like it when I spice it up a little with cinnamon or turmeric and sometimes with chili powder, but the first two spices seem to be their favorite. I like the flexability of being able to alter the ingredients without changing my basic formulation, nobody likes to eat the same thing all of the time. I also use a powdered avian vitamin/ mineral supplement that I top dress my gloop with about once a week. I have a budgie that came to me with liver issues and I put his liver tonic in his gloop, so it is a great way to give them their meds if they need them and I love the moisture content in the gloop because birds get most of their daily water supply from the foods they eat.

My feeding schedule is basically that I first give them fresh whole produce, which I only buy small amounts of so that I change which fruits and vegetables I am offering them on a regular basis, I use this as my main time of introducing them to new foods and I always give them enough to last all day. Then, I feed them their ration of gloop and again there is enough for all day then I feed a seed/ nut mix to them for dinner. They also get various treats during the day.

This is my basic feeding schedule, there are many other options that you can use to improve your birds diet, things like chopped up fruits and vegetables, both raw and cooked, and there are sprouts that can make a wonderful addition to your birds diets. With the species of birds that you have, I would suggest that you try to make their diet have about 30% fresh fruits as it appears that fruits are a large portion of their natural diet.

I go to several different bird forums, although I am cutting back on how many, but by and large I have found that sometimes bird owners can be rather opinionated when it comes to the care of their birds and may at times require other members to remind them to lighten up as they are becoming overbearing. We all like to think that we are doing the absolute best for our birds, because we love them so much. I am sure that I fall prey to this same fault from time to time, so don't be bashful in telling me to lighten up and I will try to improve. If there is any way that I can help you please let me know and I will do my best.

[liz]

Before this forum, "I did not know what I did not know".

Wolf is the calmest gentleman that I ever met. He has a way of getting to the point in a laid back way. Some of the rest of us have such passion for birdie babies that we sometimes fling out what we want to convey. I know I am guilty of it. Many times Wolf has had to post to calmly explain what I meant.

Please do not take offence with us. If I tick you off just PM me and I will further explain what I meant to say while being rude.

[Pajarita]

I am sorry you thought my comment was patronizing (people have complained about me been too terse but it's not meant to offend, it's just my style of writing). I don't know exactly what made you feel that way but, for one thing, I use the 'my dear' ALL THE TIME (both in my oral and written communications -and if you look at previous postings of mine, you will see it's nothing but an old lady thing -I also call all children 'sweety', and when I say children, I am talking about 40 year old individuals ) and I can assure you it wasn't meant as a patronizing address. For another, you would be surprised how many people actually think that breeders are experts or lovers of birds, or that avian vets actually studied parrot nutrition or behavior. If I assumed that you thought this way and do not, I apologize and I am glad you figured it out on your own. The written word is not an easy thing... There is no facial expression, body language or tone of voice to point us in the right direction so, personally, I have found it helps when I read every post in a completely neutral tone so as to give people the benefit of the doubt. But, by all means, feel free to pm me or post here your concerns/feelings and I will address them and try harder. It's VERY VERY rare that I take offense at anything so don't worry about hurting my feelings because I can assure you it won't happen.

I am puzzled by your comment "I was so relieved that Gus wasn't plucking and I hadn't already "ruined" him that much of what she said slipped through" Why were you 'relieved'? Did you see anything in his behavior or plumage that would make you fear this?

Just one more comment... I have had multiple parrots of a number of species for 24 years (I ran a rescue with about 240 of them for 6 years), I do research almost every single day, have two entire shelves with books on birds and I am only now beginning to scratch the surface of what is needed to know. The reason I am saying this is that you said you want to learn so my recommendation to you is ask your questions, read all replies and, before you make up your mind, do your own research going to nature and science. Don't take anybody's word for anything (mine included, of course!) because although you will find a lot of good intentioned people giving their opinion, you will also find that these opinions differ like day from night. We are only now beginning to learn about parrots and our knowledge is VERY new and, as such, iffy and incomplete. Not even avian vets know enough about pathology or physiology to do their job correctly and there are VERY few medicines that are meant for parrots so they have no choice but to use mammal medicine... everything related to parrots is still in infancy and, unfortunately for us, parrot keepers, the onus of figuring out what is right and what is wrong falls on us.

[galeriagila]

Welcome to the Forum, Bird Nerd! Love that.
I hope you treasure this site as much as I do.
I've had my bird for 32 years, and I *STILL* learned some important stuff!