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Hello

Postby Swannranch » Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:42 am

Hi! Obviously new here with some questions!
I own a Double Yellow Headed Amazon. I have owned him since 1998 and he was 6 months old at the time of purchase. I say "he" but do not really know the sex.
Jingles was purchased from a breeder in the Tampa area but can not remember her name.
Jingles was not hand/people trained as a new born, and my 12 year old son and I trained him/her. He did really well but really only liked/loved my son and I. My son eventually moved out on his own and Jingels has spend time in both of our homes at different times.

About a hear and a half to 2 years ago, he began some disturbing behavior, mainly biting me. We understood that these birds may get aggressive when they reach sexual maturity but expected it between 7 and 10 years of age, not at 16, 17. It has progressed and although I still handle him almost daily, I have gone back to using gloves (many years since that happened).

He has never been snuggly and cuddly, but always enjoyed personal time and time out of the cage. His cage is 2 ft. x 2 ft by 6 ft. He doesn't have a playground on top, but he spends an hour or two on the top a day.

I would let him out more, but for 2 reasons, I own a dog that was a rescue and was not raised with him...don't have a lot of reasons to worry, but I would die if anything happened to him and he likes to aggitate the dogs. Also, he has a tendancy to get into trouble...leaving the cage and chewing blinds, baseboards, wires etc. So for his safety I only let him out when I can give him almost undivided attention.

The aggression has gotten so bad that today he actually jumped on my head and "attacked". He didn't big my scalp but threw my glasses on the floor and displayed the "eyes" and fanned tail and feathers up, wings down behavior.

Generally I can tell when NOT to attempt to hold him, because I read his posture, but today it was totally unexpected. I love this bird, I hate the idea that I can not ever handle him again. But I worry for his sake and mine. The last serious bite He/she stepped up on my hand with no signs of a problem then reached down to my thumb and clamped on. My thumb was tucked in, so he basically just got the base but drew blood on both sides. I attempted to "not panic" and get him to step off, then shook my hand and he still didn't let go. I finally knocked him off with the other hand and then was concerned I could have hurt him.

Also, I have had some health and family problems in the last couple years. The most recent was a knee replacement and I didn't really interact with him much for about 3 weeks. He is always "mad" at me when I have been out of town, or out of contact for any length of time.
Since the knee replacement, after about 3 weeks, I began with handling with gloves, spending time feeding him his treats/through the cage and taking a shower with me, which he loves.
for the last 2 weeks things have been almost normal...

Have I done anything wrong? I really am at a loss for what to do. I am hoping someone with a lot of experience can give me some hope.

Thank you!
Swannranch
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 9
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: Double Yellow Headed Amazon
Flight: No

Re: Hello

Postby Pajarita » Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:40 pm

Welcome to the forum and I am sorry you are having this issues with your beloved companion. I personally know how aggressive amazons can be as I now have four but had 6 until not too long ago and the males can be quite aggressive -females are much more sweet-tempered but they can also be aggressive if they are overly hormonal (my very first rescue was a female redlored and she was a holy terror until she calmed down). But, before we can help with your problem, we need to know about his diet, his light schedule (when he gets up, when he goes to sleep) and his daily routine (out-of-cage time for flying, one-on-one time, etc) because all these things have a direct effect on aggression.

One thing that you might have misunderstood, if the bird was bred in captivity, he was handfed and, ergo, the 'hand/people' training was included as he was imprinted to humans.
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 18701
Location: NW Pa
Number of Birds Owned: 30
Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

Re: Hello

Postby Swannranch » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:27 pm

Oh my THANK YOU! I am so glad someone has seen my post. Okay, for diet...We purchase a bagged feed that I can not find the name of (maybe Vitafeed). We purchase it from our local Ranch Supply dealer, and the past few months had to purchase it in a brown bag because they only had 50 lb bags and we don't usually purchase more than 10 lbs at a time. It "looks" primarily like sunflower seeds, whole peanuts, other seeds I don't know, peppers and smaller items.
That is supplemented with fruit and bred or food I am eating, like whole grain bred crust (small portion) apples, strawberries, blue berries, peanuts, almonds sometimes a cracker here and there. He LOVES speghetti noodles maybe 2 noodles with tomato sause every 5 or 6 months...just as a treat.

Once in a great while he will get a potato chip or ritz cracker or cheeze-it. No more than every few months.

He goes to bed with us, and wakes up with us...that is a kind of random schedule but as it has been all his life. As the kids grew up and moved out, then our retirement. Generally we wake up between 7 and 9 am, and go to bed between 8 and 10 pm. His cage is in the family which is open to the kitchen and we are there most of the day. There is also a TV on 90% of his waking time, weather it's something we are watching, or just a news channel or cattle channel, or sports channel. We watch a lot of RFD-TV :) He has taught himself songs and words from shows like Andy Griffith. He/she is very verbal

As far as "light" I guess what ever the daylight hours are. We don't cover him in the summer but do cover him in the winter. But this is Florida. . . that has always varied also. Basically we cover him when it's cold and not when it's hot.

We used to keep his wings clipped, so No flying time. But we kind of quit clipping a little while before he first started biting. I keep saying HE, but I don't know. My son and I always clipped his wings but with my son moving out and just "time" we let them go. He has full grown wings but only once in a while has he ever "flown" off my hand to the ground.

His time out is also random. I "generally" come out in the morning and talk to him, get my juice and toast. If he wants a piece of toast or if I'm having fruit, he comes to a corner of the cage and I give him a piece through the cage and he goes to his perch and eats it...we jabber and my day goes on.

Depending on my schedule, I feed horses, work on fences, have places to go. . . I take him out hand carry him around for 30 min, put him on top of his cage. I then clean the cage, clean his water, feed bowls and refill them. Shortly after that he goes back in his cage on his own. Sometimes immediately.

Here is something important that as I think hard through things, this may play a major role. We have always had dogs...since he came here to live. Several dogs have come and gone through the years. I took in a Blue Heeler 6 years ago. At the time there were 3 dogs in the house and Jingles was only out when they were outside. The two other dogs passed away 4 years ago and 2 years ago respectively.

The Heeler went through a major depression after his last house companion died and he is my shadow. The Heeler is also handicapped. He broke his neck at age 4 and came here shortly after that. He is blind in one eye, and has a serious limp but is capable of being normal. Though with age, his "normal" is much slower.

The Heeler and Jingles either love or hate each other. The heeler brings the "ball" and attempts to get Jingles to play, but they spend time every day barking and screaming at each other. I don't trust either of them alone. They do vie for my attention. The are VERY jealous of each other. I like to put the heeler outside for my time with Jingles but sometimes the heat requires him to just be in another room and he barks.

I'm sorry this is so long. Just writing it down I'm seeing things that are blaring but didnt' put them together until I see them in writing.

Please offer me any suggestions, or help. I love him to death and miss my time with him. He has never ridden on my shoulder...since we owned him, he would slide down and fall off. to this day if we offer him shoulder time, he eventually wants back on my hand. He has also never bitten my son, and when my son is here doesn't seem aggressive with him. My husband also lives here and helps with feed/water and talkes to him regularly, but has never handled him. He may clean the cage but not a lot of personal interaction. It has always been primarily myself or my son.
Swannranch
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 9
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: Double Yellow Headed Amazon
Flight: No

Re: Hello

Postby Pajarita » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:17 am

Well, I think the problem you have is that the bird is in pain. Unfortunately for us and the birds, they cannot have the same schedule we have. They need to wake up with dawn without interference from any artificial light until the sun is high in the sky (when you would turn on the good quality full spectrum lights he needs) and go to sleep with the night falling naturally after been exposed to, at least, 2 hours of dusk (no artificial lights during dusk or after night falls). The problem with keeping them at a human light schedule is that their endocrine system, which regulates the production or non-production of sexual hormones, works through light. Both duration and quality (do a search about avian photoperiodism to get more information on this subject). Birds are not like mammals, they don't have 'set' seasons, they go by light so, when the days get to a certain length, they start producing sexual hormones which make their dormant organs active and starts their growth in preparation for actual breeding - and, as the days start, again, getting shorter, they reduce the production until, eventually, they stop. This makes the organs become inactive and very small - and they remain dormant until the days start getting long again. When you keep a bird at a human light schedule, the bird produces sexual hormones all the time, month after month, year after year, until they become so large that they start pushing other internal organs out of their place and this, added to the chronic inflammation, causes them pain. Constant, unremitting pain. Any animal, no matter how sweet-tempered it is and how much it loves us will become aggressive when in chronic pain...

Another trigger for sexual hormone production is a diet too rich in protein, fat and carbs. This is because nature made it so animals procreate when conditions are favorable for the raising of the young and, when it comes to birds which are all seasonal feeders, this means when food is rich and plentiful. In captivity, food is always rich and plentiful so we need to be EXTREMELY careful not to feed too much protein, fat and carbs and, going by the diet you mentioned, this is what you have been doing for many years. The problem with this diet is that it's not only a trigger for breeding, it's also extremely unhealthy for them... especially amazons which are very prone to fatty liver disease from an excess of protein, fat and carbs so I would strongly suggest you take him to an avian vet and have a complete physical done with a bile acids test added to the normal blood panels they do (CBC and avian bio-chemistries).

And the fact that he doesn't fly is still another addition to the problem because as flight is the only exercise that nature gave birds, it is also the only way to dissipate the sexual hormones from their bloodstream quickly.

So, to recap, it's not that your bird has turned aggressive because of something you did, he did it because he is sexually frustrated and in pain and the only thing that will work for him now is for you to change your husbandry to suit his needs - this means he needs to be kept at a strict solar schedule and that you need to change his diet (I don't think you have a male, by the way, because, if you had, he would have turned much more aggressive and much sooner). I would also take him to a vet because, with the kind of diet he has had for 17 years, he is bound to have liver issues and/or high uric acid.
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 18701
Location: NW Pa
Number of Birds Owned: 30
Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

Re: Hello

Postby Swannranch » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:48 pm

Wow, I feel terrible. I will be looking for an Avian vet. I'm not sure where you are located, I am in rural South Central Florida. Closest city is Ft. Myers, but I'll go anywhere. I have actually been looking for an Avian vet for a long time.
The light thing won't really be hard, as basically she has very little light other than natural light that goes with the season. Mostly the lights are off but the TV may be on after sunset all other lights are off after dinner. BUT, I will immediately make sure to follow that.
As far as diet, I really thought I was doing right. Now I'm going to have to start over. Is there a brand of Parrot feed that is more well designed for or close to their natural diet? I used to go to a parrot place in Ft. Myers that helped me "make" his feed, but they went out of business and I'm not sure where to start.

I feel sick. I thought I was doing well by him. Can he learn to fly at this point? I can spend time with her in my room allowing her to fly, but Not sure how tonother.than to let her learn on her own?
So glad I posted here. I can see after almost 18 years, I have to start over. I hope I am not too late. I love her dearly. I have had the feeling since it began that although the bites sometimes drew blood, they were more "warnings" than true attacks. Like she was trying so hard to tell me something. Often the bites were only hard enough to hurt and then hold, not like trying to take my finger off.
I will bee reading here on this page daily and begin learning. I know with horses, people often do terrible damage with good intentions...I'm am more than willing to listen and learn. Thank you so much.
Swannranch
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 9
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: Double Yellow Headed Amazon
Flight: No

Re: Hello

Postby Swannranch » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:07 pm

So if anyone has feed suggestions, I am open.
Recommendations for Vets that specialize in birds and Amazons.
We started making changes immediately. Opening the Blinds about an hour after sun up. Spent about an hour with him this morning and my son came over and did the same this evening. I went through his feed and took out half of the sun flower seeds left the rest, until I can find the much more correct feed. He likes raw carrots and celery, zucchini, potatoes, but I'm not sure what.to feed until I find something.
I live an hour and a half from anywhere, it will be Tuesday before I can get to any of the animal stores.
Swannranch
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 9
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: Double Yellow Headed Amazon
Flight: No

Re: Hello

Postby liz » Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:52 am

A "chomp" that doesn't break the skin is telling you something is wrong. Mine do it when they are scared or I am trying to make them do something that they don't want to do. Myrtle is a 6 year old brat and chomps a lot more than Rambo who is 31. Both are girls but he/she gets cranky if I call him/her Rainbow.

Mine are overdue for checkups. My life is going around faster than I can keep up but will get them there soon. I keyed in "Avian Vets" and "Exotic Pets Vet" to find them. I then put in my zip code to get the ones close to me. If you don't find one that way contact a Parrot Rescue and ask their advice.

I know you feel guilty but don't beat yourself up. I got Rambo without instructions. No telling where he/she would be if I had not joined this forum. They have also helped me so much with my spoiled girl Myrtle.
You cannot hate yourself for not knowing. Not learning is the shame and you seem to be so willing to learn. Kudos.
User avatar
liz
Macaw
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 7234
Location: Hernando FL
Number of Birds Owned: 12
Types of Birds Owned: DYH Amazon Rambo
BF Amazon Myrtle
Cockatiels: Shadow Tammy Flutter Phoenix Jackie
Andy Impy Louise Twila Leroy
Flight: Yes

Re: Hello

Postby Wolf » Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:32 am

All anyone can do is the best they can with the knowledge they have at the time. Many of us have made the same mistakes that you have made and worse all because we id not know better ways and it is even more difficult with the internet due to the old ways of caring for our birds still being available mixed in with the new things that have been learned as this makes it seem that the information is contradictory when it is just a progression of knowledge. I hope that makes sense.

Up until about 25 years ago there had been no actual studies done regarding parrots, this only began when the exotic bird trade boomed into a global market and there was money to be made so that is when the research began and the results of some of the first studies are just becoming known. We still have much to learn and we expect to learn that even some of the most up to date and recent findings will be shown later on to still need improvements.
Wolf
Macaw
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is male
Posts: 8679
Location: Lansing, NC
Number of Birds Owned: 6
Types of Birds Owned: Senegal
African Grey (CAG)
Yellow Naped Amazon
2Celestial Parrotlet
Budgie
Flight: Yes

Re: Hello

Postby Pajarita » Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:21 pm

No, my dear, you are not too late and, although I understand why you would feel bad about the problem, believe me when I tell you that this is not really your fault! Parrots are extremely difficult animals to keep healthy and happy - and, when we first started the pet parrot fad about 30 years ago, nobody had a single clue as to how to care for them properly - not even the people who were breeding and selling them for the pet trade. I, myself, have made so many mistakes with mine that I feel like kicking myself! And, as Liz and Wolf mentioned, we all went through this learning process - every single last one of us! The important thing -and what separates the 'good' parrot keepers from the 'bad' ones- is to learn and to act on our new knowledge instead of just keep on doing the wrong thing.

I am not anywhere near Florida (I am in Northern New Jersey) so I can't help you finding a good avian vet in your area but I am sure there are some - and, if you cannot find one, use one that treats exotics because, sometimes, they are either as good or even better than board certified avian vets.

As to the changes... You need to open the shades BEFORE the sky begins to get any light in the morning, not one hour after - this is because it is that different light that happens before sunrise that sets the internal 'stop watch' on so it can start measuring the number of hours in the day. It is the different spectrum distribution of the light that does it - same with sunset (notice how everything looks a bit rosey and honey-colored these times of the day? Well, that is what they need). And, yes, the light that comes out of the TV screen is not good (there are studies done with people and it has been shown that this 'blue' light inhibits production of melatonin -the hormone that makes us drowsy and allows us to fall asleep among many other things it does for us -and the birds). For during the day, you should put a good quality full spectrum light in the ceiling fixture of the room where he is kept. The specifications for this light is a CRI (Color Rendering Index) as close to 100 as you can find BUT with a Ktemp (Kelvin Temperature) between 5000 and 5500 because this is the light that most resembles the natural light of the sun. I am now using Dr. Mercola's:
http://shop.mercola.com/product/30w-com ... 93,1,0.htm) but I am considering switching to these for the winter:
http://www.topbulb.com/50w-12v-mr16-hal ... over-glass

The Ktemp on the last one is lower than 5000 but the CRI is higher and I am thinking that it will be better for the winter to have a Ktemp a bit lower (the higher the Ktemp the more it brings them into breeding condition). I had found a perfect one a while ago but, because I had to get a new computer, I lost the reference I had saved and now I can't find it!

Just to give you an idea of the schedule, right now (it changes as the seasons change), I am turning on the ceiling lights at 9 am and off at 3 pm because I am feeding them dinner at 5:15 pm (I like to give them an hour or of sunset after dinner so they have plenty of time to go to roost as slowly as they feel like it).

Now, on to the diet issue. I don't not feed pellets and, supposedly (and that is a BIG 'supposedly'!), they are the only nutritionally complete food there is for birds. I have been doing research on parrots natural diets for over 20 years and reached the conclusion long ago that pellets are not the best dietary option for them (several reasons: dryness, overprocessing, ingredients, lack of control over actual protein intake, etc). I feed mine gloop (a dish of lightly cooked whole grains and pulses mixed with chopped veggies) and raw produce for breakfast and all day picking and a good quality seed/nut mix for dinner. I have found that this diet, with the addition of some vitamins mixed in the food or water once or twice a week, is best for them. I have two amazons with liver damage and one that came to me with gout on her feet and they are all doing great on this diet! Besides, they LOVE gloop! If you look in the diet section, you will find a few gloop recipes - from a very simple one made out of Kashi's 7 whole grain pilaf to a more complicated one where you get all the grains separately (I do the more complicated one but, in truth, is no longer 'complicated' to me because I've been doing it for so long that I can make it in my sleep :lol: ). I make a BIG batch of grains and pulses, freeze half of it and mix the other half with the frozen veggies after the grains cool (frozen veggies are, next to fresh picked from the plant, the produce that retains the most nutrition). Once everything is mixed, I split it into daily portions and put it in individual freezer baggies which I thaw in the fridge and allow to become room temperature (in the winter, I have to nuke it for a few seconds) before I serve it (I also add stuff like spices and/or unsweetened grated coconut, raisins, etc so as to change the flavor daily).

A word of caution: don't expect a sudden change, it won't happen. A messed up endocrine system takes a long time to go back 'on track' and start following the seasons as it should so don't despair if you don't see him/her getting better soon. Keep at it and it will happen. I can promise you that! And don't worry if he/she doesn't eat the gloop the first few days. This is normal. I have transitioned hundreds of birds to gloop and they all learned to love it. What you can do to make things easier on him/her is to make a basic gloop with only grains and pulses and mix it with a sprinkle of seeds from his usual mix (this is to help him identify the grains as 'good food'. Now, for pulses, you can use lentils and beans BUT, when it comes to beans, try to use only the white ones because they are the lowest in a bad lectin beans have (the kidney beans been the highest, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_bean_, and, if you are going to cook them yourself, make sure you don't just simmer them, they need to boil for 30 minutes to kill this lectin.

Start the steady routine as soon as possible - parrot thrive on routine, it gives them a sense of control over their own lives, something we completely take away when we make them our pets and they have to depend on us for everything - and something that is contrary to their nature because, in the wild, each parrot decides for itself when, how and why. Always allow the bird to go back to its cage of its roosting spot at noon (all birds rest at noon, it's part of their circadian biorhythms) -sometimes they nap, sometimes they just chill on their own but this 'time to themselves' is important for them.
Pajarita
Norwegian Blue
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 18701
Location: NW Pa
Number of Birds Owned: 30
Types of Birds Owned: RoseBreasted too, CAG, DoubleYellowHead Amazon, BlueFront Amazon, YellowNape Amazon, Senegal, African Redbelly, Quaker, Sun Conure, Nanday, BlackCap Caique, WhiteBelly Caique, PeachFace lovebird, budgies,
Flight: Yes

Re: Hello

Postby Swannranch » Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:35 pm

I totally understand what your saying Wolf. The Horse world is similar, there are old school ways to do things, and current ways to do things and they are often in direct conflict. I am finding that right now as I try to research feed.
When he was young we did TONS of research, thought we learned all kinds of things and generally stayed with what we learned. Not realy understanding the changes necessary with age, and our books and internet info was probably old at the time. We have had chickens, ducks and geese, but they were all similar and lived to be very old for their species.

Side note, yesterday my son was here for hours and Jingles never once acted aggressive toward him. My son held him and spent several hours with him/her. This morning is has been very aggressive toward me again. And the more I pay attention, the more I realize it's worse in the mornings, and much calmer in the evenings.

I am still at a loss for what to feed. I have read about 5 articles that basically all say something different. Feed Pelleted feed, DON'T EVER feed pelleted feed, only feed fruits and vegitables, only feed seeds, keep protein up, don't feed too much protien. . .

Since I don't have access until probably tomorrow to purchase something new, I'm trying to cut the fatty things out of his feed and add fresh fruit and vegis. Tuesday I'm heading to Ft. Myers and have scouted 3 or 4 places I'm going to talk and visit with people that have information and sell products.

I'm a little worried about light. He is in the family room which is all windows. So he is always getting light according to the sun up, sun down. Because we are getting old, we are pretty much done with our day and headed to bed very shortly after sundown. We feed horses, cattle, dogs and us, clean up the kitchen and head to bed. Sometimes the tv is still on a while, so I have it set to turn off about 30 min after sundown. I'm not sure weather I should move him, but he really hates to be alone. He has never been a room shut away, but when we are in the house but not with him, or outside but we can hear him, he is constantly calling us or his favorite doing the Microwave sound.

This is going to be a long process. I have physical therapy today in the small town closest to us but the only feed available is our local feed store or Tractor Supply, so I'm waiting until tomorrow on that front.

I think of things I used to do (40 years ago) with the horses and I cringe a little...never realizing I was making similar mistakes with my Baby.
Swannranch
Parakeet
 
Gender: This parrot forum member is female
Posts: 9
Number of Birds Owned: 1
Types of Birds Owned: Double Yellow Headed Amazon
Flight: No

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