boyfriend of a 'parrot person'

[liz]

GlassOnion - you are right again.

[dorp]

To each their own just like you said. If you get enjoyment out of keeping parrots I'm happy for you. Even though you made the same logical mistake as liz about proving emotions and intelligence I'm okay with that. I said at the beginning that I just don't believe in it, just like I don't believe in santa clause and heaven or hell. Although I could go on a pointless internet fight about silly things about intelligence in birds etc. but I'm not looking to change anyone's beliefs in something they clearly get enjoyment out of.

That being said,
(omg big parrots are sooo gross! AHHHH! Those little claw disgusting claw feet!)
Yea so, I've read through a lot of research and I appreciate all of your help here. I came here looking for some seriously crazy people to confirm that all parrot people are in-fact, insane. However, I was pleasantly surprised to find Michael and others that have a clear sense of objectivity which is crucial for me to have in this mad, parrot world that I live in now.

The immaturity comment might hold some truth too. I was really disappointed in myself when I couldn't overcome this parrot problem. It's difficult for me to accept this kind of pet in my life for all the reasons I've mentioned before and then some. I view myself as a very tolerant and objective person so when I was losing sleep and having anxiety attacks over these birds, my first impulse and coping mechanism was definitely to hate the things (parrots). This whole thing eats away at me constantly so I need places like this and youtube >:) to express myself and vent a little. Being around parrots for a while is a serious mental challenge unfortunately. The woman I bought the Aviator harness and flight line from for my girlfriend told me she offers free 'human-traning' as she called it haha for people like me. Maybe I'll try it out but I think there is a huge wall in my brain preventing me from ever liking large parrots like mackaws, greys, and amazons.

[liz]

I'll probably be called down for this: You don't have a wall in your brain but a rock in your head for coming on a parrot forum and bashing parrots.

[cml]

I came here looking for some seriously crazy people to confirm that all parrot people are in-fact, insane.

Then you came here with an egocentric and immature attitude, showing us no respect whatsoever. You are extremely rude and to be frank, have no place here. I think you should leave this forum, you contribute nothing and are unwilling to learn. Your girlfriend, while having an unruly parrot, deserves far better.

[Michael]

I think it's selfish and supercilious to say that humans are the only animals to have emotions.

It's not a matter of feeling better about yourself, it's a matter of objectivity. I never said that it is impossible for animals to have emotion. What I said was that just because Alex performed tasks comparable to a 5 year old, does not in any way prove that he also has emotions like a 5 year old. They are independent of each other. Feeling emotions is not requisite for analyzing patterns or communicating responses.

If going by that statement, the biggest thing that separates us from other animals is our heightened intelligence, yes?

Even that comes into question as our dear friend dorp has thoroughly demonstrated so far

So then why wouldn't an animal with a 5 year old human level intelligence feel any emotions? A brain that advanced isn't just full of numbers and shapes with 0 sense of emotion.

The burden of proof is upon individuals claiming the existence of something and not upon everyone else and the status quo. You can't prove that parrots have emotions just because they can perform similar tasks (that don't require or demonstrate emotion in any shape) to 5 year olds.

For you to compare carefully premeditated scientific demonstrations of comparative psychology with emotion strictly based on belief is disappointing. I admire the Alex studies because they were so carefully performed and documented. Many measures were taken to alleviate observer bias. For example the parrot had to perform tasks with different people, experiments were randomly interchanged, studies were recorded and verified by other experts, etc. The study was very specific and had absolutely nothing to do with emotions. So I think to try to draw a connection between the alex studies and concept of animal emotions is careless at best.

I've seen Gorillas interact with each other both in person and in documentaries, and they clearly display emotions like we do. Parrots too. There's anthropomorphism and then there's seeing it for yourself with some common sense.

Fighting, retreating, wimpering, playing, touching, holding, etc are behaviors that can be observed. However, they do not prove emotions. Social behaviors could just as well be genetic or learned and not be based on emotions. Therefore seeing animals behave akin to humans still does not prove they have emotions.

Michael, do you really think that your Kili and Truman don't feel any emotion?

I didn't say that they don't feel emotion. Neither did I say that it isn't possible that they feel emotion. What I said is that if you really put hopes/beliefs aside and look at things objectively there is no way of knowing or proving that they have emotion. Sure I'd like to think that they have emotion and some of their behavior makes me suspect that they do. However, to label it emotion as opposed to instinct, learning, or anthropomorphism isn't objective.

The problem is that pet owners like to think their pets have emotion. It makes them feel better about themselves. But this is anthropomorphism and projecting and not scientifically objective. I can accept that I love my parrots and they don't love me back. I can do everything in my power to make their life good without expecting emotional return. I can accept that they love treats, scratches, time out of their cages, and things that I can do for them and not me. It would be nice if there is something more to it, but there doesn't have to be. I enjoy watching them, spending time for them, and even slaving away cleaning and taking care of them.

In your imagination your pet can be anything that you want it to be. This is probably a very appealing aspect to many people. Since they can't know what it really thinks/feels, they choose to believe it's things that make them feel better about themselves. Fine, whatever. But arguments strictly based on what you believe or want them to be don't prove anything. It's not a big deal if people enjoy believing things, but when it comes to problem solving this gets in the way. When people are having problems with their parrots (and many do for many reasons), then it is important to throw all presumptions aside and work strictly with what is known, observable, and objectively provable.

[GlassOnion]

Michael, you're totally right. We don't have any scientific evidence or a lead to conclude that animals have emotions. But I don't think it makes sense that they wouldn't. But you're always really good at countering points with unbiased, objective arguments.

[RWfishead]

I read a lot of this thread but not all. I did want to comment, The issue is the relationship between girl and parrot.The parrot is for her pleasure ,a very selfish outlook on things.I could not imagine not socializing a pet better so it could enjoy a more happy and fulfilling life,dump the b***h,She and that DYH are doomed.What a great injustice such a shallow person has done to a great bird. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Mona]

HI Michael:

Fun topic and it draws me in but I don't have much time. I like your reasoning, however; as you state and others do, it's perfectly obvious that parrots have emotions. You don't need a scientific study...just consider the definition:

Emotion: any strong agitation of the feelings actuated by experiencing love, hate, fear, etc. and usually accompanied by certain physiological changes, as increased heartbeat or respiration, and often overt manifestation, as crying or shaking.

I think most of this have experienced something "overt" with our parrots that indicates an emotional state. The most obvious place is through the heartbeat or even in the feet. It's easier to "see" if you have a strong bond with the animal so that it welcomes your touch. (If it's fearful of your touch, you are always going to get that physiological sensation of fear so you won't be able to measure change). I could probably list dozens of examples, but what comes to my head quickly is when I ask my small parrot (Babylon is the easiest for me) to step up to somebody. If she is comfortable with that person, her feet are steady and you won't feel any shaking. If she is not comfortable, I can feel a slight shaking in her feet. I read alot of emotions through the feet with my hens.

Another very, very obvious emotional reaction happens with night frights. Babylon will beat herself up in her cage when she gets these. It's a pretty extreme fear reaction and I have to take her in my hand and snuggle her. Her heartbeat is wild and if I release her from my hand, she will take off flying around the room. If't's dark, she hits walls. I hold her until her heartbeat slows down. It's an amazing feeling. Once her heartbeat slows down, I can place her back in the cage and she is fine. This can take 10 to 15 minutes at night. Over the next few days, she becomes quiet docile with me and will whimper and cuddle a lot more than usual. It's something a "pet owner" can easily measure....maybe not so much an "objective scientist" because they may not have that ability to get close enough to see it.

Thanks and happy New Year!

Mona

[Cage Cleaner]

To each their own just like you said. If you get enjoyment out of keeping parrots I'm happy for you. Even though you made the same logical mistake as liz about proving emotions and intelligence I'm okay with that. I said at the beginning that I just don't believe in it, just like I don't believe in santa clause and heaven or hell. Although I could go on a pointless internet fight about silly things about intelligence in birds etc. but I'm not looking to change anyone's beliefs in something they clearly get enjoyment out of.

That being said,
(omg big parrots are sooo gross! AHHHH! Those little claw disgusting claw feet!)
Yea so, I've read through a lot of research and I appreciate all of your help here. I came here looking for some seriously crazy people to confirm that all parrot people are in-fact, insane. However, I was pleasantly surprised to find Michael and others that have a clear sense of objectivity which is crucial for me to have in this mad, parrot world that I live in now.

The immaturity comment might hold some truth too. I was really disappointed in myself when I couldn't overcome this parrot problem. It's difficult for me to accept this kind of pet in my life for all the reasons I've mentioned before and then some. I view myself as a very tolerant and objective person so when I was losing sleep and having anxiety attacks over these birds, my first impulse and coping mechanism was definitely to hate the things (parrots). This whole thing eats away at me constantly so I need places like this and youtube >:) to express myself and vent a little. Being around parrots for a while is a serious mental challenge unfortunately. The woman I bought the Aviator harness and flight line from for my girlfriend told me she offers free 'human-traning' as she called it haha for people like me. Maybe I'll try it out but I think there is a huge wall in my brain preventing me from ever liking large parrots like mackaws, greys, and amazons.

I skimmed this thread. It's pretty hilarious. I honestly feel sorry for you.

My suggestion would be to sit down and talk to your girlfriend, and explain how you feel that your sense of masculinity is challenged and perhaps completely absolved when you are around the parrot. I'm sure she wants her boyfriend to feel that he is still a man.

In all seriousness, though, if you want relationship to work, then the best course of action would be to try to have an open mind and try to train the parrot to accept you. Not always easy, and definitely will take some work. Also, it seems like the parrot hasn't been well trained either, as it behaves absolutely horribly, from what you've described. But certainly, the first step is to actually want it to happen. Because the bird doesn't look like it's going away any time soon...

On the flip side, though. If I were your girlfriend and I saw some of the things you've posted here, that would be the end of the relationship right there. Heh.

[dorp]

I ended our relationship today. While somewhat liberating I still feel awful. What triggered me to go on a rant about parrots (again) and our relationship in general was her parent's giant mackaw. I was just standing next to its cage and as usual the giant disgusting awful creature is just slamming its head/beak against the cage trying to bite me or something. I just stand there and stroke its beak kind of just pissing it off even more and I look at my girlfriend who is visibly upset about me 'taunting' it or something. Also, Just a few minutes before that I was getting her mother's grey to fly a little (something it's never done apparently) by dropping the arm that it was perched on. After it finally let go and hovered to the ground she apologized to the bird. Yes, she apologized to a fucking bird. After the Mackaw thing I just basically raged on her telling her about how dumb parrots are etc. and how she gives precedence to pet birds over me. Now obviously this is just the tip of the iceberg concerning our relationship problems but it nonetheless exemplifies to me how shallow and naive she is. Apparently if I don't like the parrots then I can just 'ignore' them as she described but as I've told her countless times before that the parrots are a serious problem for me. Basically I think we were just dating on borrowed time and what it all came down to was that she is just severely socially and emotional underdeveloped and is incapable of having a reasonable conversation. This isn't her fault but just a product of her environment however, I've waited long enough for her to make some meaningful progress and I'm moving on.

Parrots... unbelievable that people get enjoyment from these things.