An update

[cml]

Okay everyone, sorry for the double post... where's a poll when you need one?

It is now a decision to choose Chance or the white-bellied Caique. The Caique is too cute for words and reminds me of Senegals with their clownish behavior, but the Caique is a baby and not a rehome. Babies are great but my heartstrings tug at the rehomes, y'know?

The main thing that holds me back from choosing Chance immediately is that she chews my clothes, I mean, really puts holes in them. I know this is a Grey thing, heck, a parrot thing as Tiki chewed my clothes too, but not like this -- Chance does some real damage, and I'm a little afraid that her beak could hurt me as she chews. Of course I am accepting that this is a part of parrot behavior, but can it be controlled a bit with training? Michael? Pajarita? Cml? Marie? Anyone?

Chance's beak could definetely hurt you, but so can a caique's. Yes the caique is smaller but I bet they still pack one hell of a punch in that beak.

As to the chewing, its possible to get them to bite clothes less, but only to some extent. In our house, Stitch loves biting knitted sweathers, which means that we try to not wear that kind of clothing at home. Prevention is the key. Niether bird is interested in other clothes and leave them be (unless it has buttons).
Avoiding to wear clothes that provoke clothes-biting makes the bird do it less (logic right ^^?).

Also, I wouldnt allow Chance on your shoulder anyway, as its an unknown bird that you will need to build up a mutual trust with. I dont allow either of my birds on my shoulders unless there is a special circumstance that demands it, and I know where I have them .

When it comes to your decision, cant help . It has to be your decision. Caiques and greys are totally different birds though, greys known to be more timid, thoughtful, intelligent etc, where the caiques are known to hyperactive clowns. Have you seen caiques jumping? Its hilarious ^^.

What kind of bird are you looking for? Even if you shouldnt assume that birds behave one way or another, some attributes are ascribed to each species. Of course, there is room for a lot of variation and individual birds may be totally different.

[GreenWing]

Thanks, cml. That's very helpful info and I took everything you said into consideration before I made my final decision today. All in all I think Chance is the bird for me, there is so much love between us, and you should have seen her today, all nestled in my chest, getting kisses. ♥

I am happy to share that I put a deposit down for Chance this afternoon. ♥
Pictures of my cute feathered baby to be shared soon. Thanks for all of your help, everyone!

[cml]

Great, I am sure you will have an awesome and rewarding relationship with your new feathered friend !

Chance will have a great home, and a great parront.

And of course we need pics, asap!

[Pajarita]

It takes time to teach a bird not to chew holes in clothes but it's actually pretty easy. All you have to do is every single time they start (and you have to pay a lot of attention because they catch on very fast on what you are trying to do and start doing it on your back where you can't see them -LOL), you say NO! in a firm voice while simultaneously move your arm/shoulder/whatever part of your body he is on so he has to fly off. I took in a very affectionate Sunday that did this (the reason why they gave him up -he also screamed) ALL THE TIME and it took about 4 months for him to stop (he still tries every now and then but not more often than once a week or so and stops immediately when I tell him to) but I wear 'parrots clothes' when I go into the birdroom so, personally, I didn't mind it very much but I still taught him to stop because this is a habit birds pick up when they are not properly socialized when young or are ignored by their owners so it was in his best interest to re-direct this behavior into a more productive one for him (he now kisses me or preens my hair, much more satisfying for him and me).

[cml]

Do you find using "NO" works for you Pajarita?
My experience is that they take any word as attention, and that it inadvertantly reinforces the behaviour. Whats your opinion on this?

[GreenWing]

Great, I am sure you will have an awesome and rewarding relationship with your new feathered friend !

Chance will have a great home, and a great parront.

And of course we need pics, asap!

Thank you so much! *hugs* I am so happy about adopting her! Here is a pic of her having fun:

It takes time to teach a bird not to chew holes in clothes but it's actually pretty easy. All you have to do is every single time they start (and you have to pay a lot of attention because they catch on very fast on what you are trying to do and start doing it on your back where you can't see them -LOL), you say NO! in a firm voice while simultaneously move your arm/shoulder/whatever part of your body he is on so he has to fly off.

Yes, this is exactly what one of the clerks told me -- and she is like the "parrot whisperer" (lol) and very experienced with birds as well. I've been doing likewise with Chance: I tell her a firm "No" and distract her. The clerk told me to set her down, tell her no, and then ask her to step-up. When she doesn't chew, praise a ton. It's funny, I praise Chance whenever she steps-up and she looks surprised that I am praising her. I almost wonder if anyone took the time to work with her in her previous homes.

[Michael]

And what exactly is the difference between saying "no" and praising a ton? I find it hysterical that people think saying something in a "firm voice" will make a parrot give a damn. If there's no consequence, they have no good reason to comply. If there is a consequence, you'll probably lose trust all together. There's only one method that is safe and universal and that's to prevent the problem while reinforcing alternative behavior and ignoring unwanted behavior in the rare circumstance it does occur.

[cml]

And what exactly is the difference between saying "no" and praising a ton? I find it hysterical that people think saying something in a "firm voice" will make a parrot give a damn. If there's no consequence, they have no good reason to comply. If there is a consequence, you'll probably lose trust all together. There's only one method that is safe and universal and that's to prevent the problem while reinforcing alternative behavior and ignoring unwanted behavior in the rare circumstance it does occur.

I completely agree.

Ive tried the saying no approach a couple of years ago, and my experience, through trial and (t)error, is that it will backfire on you. Ive been very successful with the approach Michael outlined above though.

[Pajarita]

I don't mean to offend anybody and I respect everybody's opinion but, in my personal opinion, thinking that parrots don't understand the meaning of NO! is not taking into consideration how smart they are. I don't train my parrots in the sense that I don't devote any amount of time specifically to the task, I just always react the same way to their actions and I am very consistent not only in my reactions but also in the language I use. I don't use rewards or any tool (as a clicker or a wand) but they all learn and not one or two commands or phrases, A LOT of them. We are talking about birds that have the intelligence of a 2 to a 4 year old child. Birds that can count their chicks and know when one is missing, that understand the concept of cause and consequence, that comprehend the difference between past and future and have a very accurate sense of time, that use cognitive speech, for heaven's sake! If a bird can figure out how to open up several different locks that need to be done in a certain sequence or have a cognitive vocabulary of hundreds of words, wow could a simple NO!, something that a 6 months old baby understands, be too hard for them?

My birds don't only understand NO!, they understand phrases that are much more subtle than that and that could be confusing as to their meaning because of the similarity of cause and effect. For example, I say "I'm watching you..." when I see one having a bit of an attitude with another one (like when one pulls the paper plate with food from under another one's beak) but I say "BE NICE!" when there is a bit of conflict (like a younger zon preventing an older, weaker one from eating from the same plate) and before it escalates into a NO! BAD BIRD! GET IN THERE! (when there is an actual lunge or nip)- The "I'm watching you" hardly ever stops the action but they know what it means because they watch me to see if I am still watching them and don't do anything until I am distracted; the "BE NICE" stops most of them except the zons defending their territory/food or the quaker her 'nest' but the "NO! BAD BIRD! GET IN THERE!" makes all of them stop and go into a cage for a short time out and, with most of them, I don't even have to close the door because they stay in it for a little while all on their own. If they can understand all these nuances and react accordingly to them, how could they not understand a simple NO!, the first thing a small baby learns to recognize?

Pet parrots are not only VERY smart, they are also excellent readers of human and parrot body language as well as humans' different tones of voices and can easily tell the difference between an "I am happy with you" tone and an "I am NOT happy with you" one. And, because they love us and are naturally geared toward pleasing their flock members, they would always try to do what would result in a "I am happy with you" tone of voice and praise.

[GreenWing]

Yes, I agree with Pajarita. Consider the research done on Greys in particular, it has been revealed that parrots do understand the meaning and concept of words.

And what exactly is the difference between saying "no" and praising a ton? I find it hysterical that people think saying something in a "firm voice" will make a parrot give a damn. If there's no consequence, they have no good reason to comply. If there is a consequence, you'll probably lose trust all together. There's only one method that is safe and universal and that's to prevent the problem while reinforcing alternative behavior and ignoring unwanted behavior in the rare circumstance it does occur.

But making a big deal with lavished praise lets the bird know she did something that we like. This is why Chance is stepping up so readily now, she gets praised big time. Now it could be that she doesn't get wtf I am saying when I give a firm "No" but it might add weight with the body language (setting down) and trying again after a pause -- and if the bird doesn't chew -- you praise again. I dunno, but it does seem to help. Parrots are not dogs, I get that, but they have their own body language after all. I would mimic Tiki's back-turned behavior that she would do to me when ticked, and it did work.

(Sorry for all the edits, sent from my Smartphone)