At long last...

[Pajarita]

Yes, plenty of 'wingnuts', that's for sure! But that happens in every movement or with any belief, doesn't it? Religion, politics, etc. Vegans, in my personal opinion and without trying to make anybody feel bad, are people who are not really what one would call realistic because the ONLY way you can live without using any animal for anything but companionship is if you are 100% self-sufficient in all your needs and, if you were, you would die of avitaminosis after living very uncomfortably (no plastic bags, no car, nothing made out of wool or leather, etc) and looking like a fright for years (no shampoo, no conditioner, no toothpaste, no face creams, no makeup, etc). I am talking no chocolate and nothing red (my favorite color). But, in this particular case, it seems to me that the extreme reaction was more from a sense of betrayal than anything else.

[seagoatdeb]

Vegans are people so they can choose good vegan diets or bad vegan diets, depending on their individual needs. They are very healthy diets if common sense is used on them so you get evey vitamin. I have gone on raw vegan diets many times to achieve optimum health, and so I would classify people who eat animals who have been kept in ways that are not humane, and slaughtered in terrifying ways as not repecting those animals rights, and supporting the continued use. I would not resort to calling them "unrealistic" Most people do the best they can with what they have learned untill now. I also make my own shampoo, my own soap, deodarant, and my own makeup. I always do that, for my own health, and also so as to not pollute the earth further, and endanger species.

[ParrotsForLife]

Pajarita my Aunt has been a vegan for years nothing wrong with it and one of my teachers is too.

[Pajarita]

I am not saying there is anything wrong with been a vegan but, if you are, you need to take supplements because you would not be able to produce enough vit B12 on your own. I am not even a vegetarian because I consume meat but, because I only eat pastured beef, chicken or turkey (I don't eat pork) and this is not easy to come by at a reasonable price (same as eggs, I usually pay around $6 for a dozen), I end up eating too little of it and have to take not only daily supplements of B12 but also get injections from my doctor.

The unrealistic part of it is not for vegans that do it because they think it's a healthier diet but for vegans that do it because they don't want to use anything produced or derived from an animal which, in this day and age, it's pretty impossible because there are animal products in almost everything we buy or use - even in things that we would never think they do like plastic bags, baby diapers, shoe polish, commercial lubricants, blush, etc. I mean, if you have anything that used red pigment and that doesn't mean just plain old red but orange, brown, purple, some shades of yellow, etc (think paint, clothes, curtains, upholstery, pottery, paintings, etc) in your house, you have something that was made out of dead animals - see what I mean?

[seagoatdeb]

Most vegans get their B12 from nutritional yeast, which is available in many places. Unrealistic is not a good word to use. If we want people to quit keeping animals in bad conditions and slaughterig them in fear then we do our best to get products sourced locally, or with green menthods, and dont use products that hurt the planet. It starts at the grass roots with our pocketbooks. if we dont buy then less is made. You may not be able to stay completely away from everything that uses animal products but the more you do the more you make the world a better place. I am very happy for each person that is part of the solution, so they are not unrealistic to me. They are people with great social conscience.

I dont use red toxic dyes. I use beet root powder for blush and even a piece of beets will stain your lips and cheeks red. It is good for your skin too. I make face powder out of bentonite clay/or arrowroot powder and raw cocao powder, mixed to my colour, and use the same mix with a little more cocao, and turmeric to make a bronzer, and it is so nourishing to your skin, and maes it look so healthy and vibrant...... of course I have to wash it off when I get home before the parrots preen me, since cocao is not good for them. This is not the place for my recipes but just to show that it is not hard to get "red" in makeup that is healthy for everyone, since you mentioned red dye. Beets are good for dyeing cloth red too. the hard colour too get is blue, since there is not much in nature that will give a good blue.

[Wolf]

I tried to go vegetarian once and it almost killed me. My doctor told me to not do that again. I don't care if others can and do eat only vegetarian, but it does not work for my body. I just wish that those that are vegetarian would quit acting as if I were some sort of demon because I eat a lot of meat. I don't treat them that way and generally think of it as being unrealistically rude. There has to be room for all of us. To my way of thinking we all have to learn to accept each other and learn to get along and try to be considerate and help each other or , excuse the pun, we are all just dead meat anyway.

[Pajarita]

Yep, we are all 'meat'. And one can be respectful and even loving of animals and still eat meat, eggs, etc. There is no such thing as 'sanctity of life' in nature and humans did not evolve to be vegans so, although I have no problem with people going vegan, it does require a lot of study, work and money to stay healthy without consuming any animal product.

As to nutritional yeast, Seagoatdeb, yes, some brands do provide enough B12 but that's because, as far as I know, they are fortified with it (http://mjr.earthbalancenatural.com/b12- ... nal-yeast/) so it is still a supplement - and I understand that some people hate the taste of it (I never tried it so I don't know whether I would like it or not).

[seagoatdeb]

There is room for those who are vegetarian and those who eat meat, I am only for the eithical treatment of animials who are used for meat. I dont like to see anyone call Vegans unrealistic, or put them down and I would not be happy if anyone called you a demon either Wolf.

Also it does not take years of study to become Vegan and be healthy, you only need access to good information, and it sould not be expensive, i find it cheaper when I go on a raw vegan diet, but depending on where you live, it may be more expensive, I really dont know. As for nutritional yeast and how it tastes, I love it on the kale chips I dehydrate, it gives them a sort of "Cheese" flavour. It also adds a "cheesy" taste to raw soups. The only difference between yeast used for baking and nutritional yeast is the nutritional yeaet does not leaven, and it is a good source of iron, potassium, selenium, amino acids, and other B vitamins.

[Pajarita]

Well, you might not think it takes a lot of study to keep healthy as a vegan but I disagree. People don't even check the nutritional labels, much less take the time to look for all the information you need in order to achieve a good balance on a diet which is not what nature meant for humans to eat. I had a couple of vegan friends, two of them were fellow volunteers at the shelter when I lived in Pennsylvania, the third one was somebody I had met on a birdsite and for whom I ended up caring for both her grays for 9 months and, although you don't like the word 'unrealistic' when applied to vegans, these three ladies were. They lived on pizza, salad, French fries and smoothies but still used all kinds of things that were made with animal products even though they did it out of moral outrage over the killing of animals. One of them did not use any makeup at all but the other two did. And, I forgot to mention this before but, when I read your previous posting, I was thinking that you must be much younger than me and one of those one in a trillion natural beauties because if I put clay, arrowroot powder and cocoa on my face, I would look as if I had put crackle paint on it

[Wolf]

If I were to put cocoa on my face not only would I look damn funny( worth a picture of) I would not make it out of the house because my boxes pup and the two 100+ pound pups would pin me to the floor or wall on O would not escape until they had licked every bit of it off of my face and beard.