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Is Your Parrot Self Aware or Not

Off topic discussions that are unrelated to parrots and other parrot discussions that don't fit anywhere else.

Re: Is Your Parrot Self Aware or Not

Postby Pajarita » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:03 am

Intelligence and consciousness of self is not self-awareness. They are different things. Parrots are, without a doubt, highly intelligent. They can learn, they figure things out -they reason and reach conclusions-, they understand and use the concept of a proper name (identity) and even intangible things like the concept of zero, they can count and might even have a sense of time but none of those things represents self-awareness.

The thing is that when we say that a parrot understands something, in reality, unless there is a precise action that can only be explained by this, there is nothing to tell us that this has happened but our gut feeling. It's not that I have anything against gut feelings, mind you! Sometimes, there is nothing else that we can go by. I call them my 'off-the-wall' theories but they are the same thing. Birds are not easy to understand because they have no eyebrows and they can't move their beaks or cheeks the way we move them so there is no real facial expression to go by (which is what we use with human beings) - this, added to the fact that they cannot tell us if they really and truly get something or not makes this kind of thing impossible to tell one way or the other with any certainty UNLESS there is precise and exact proof - and we don't have those yet.

Wolf, you started the thread but I don't think you have said whether you believe they are or not...
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Re: Is Your Parrot Self Aware or Not

Postby Wolf » Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:02 am

Actually, I believe that when I started this thread that I stated that I believe that they are self aware and that I have stated this belief in several other threads as well, with the last post in another thread was in the one where I asked if you thought your parrot enjoyed training or learning.

I can't claim to have any proof or disproof as to whether they are self aware or not, but I am curious as to what others think and why, so I ask questions such as this one even though I already know that even with humans there is actually no real proof of self awareness. Although with humans it is generally accepted that they are self aware and that most humans would be rather offended if I were to say that they are not self aware.
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Re: Is Your Parrot Self Aware or Not

Postby Pajarita » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:41 am

Sorry, I must have missed it. But, Wolf, of course there is proof that humans are self-aware! The fact that we figure out and understand what self-awareness is and we ponder about it in other species is proof in itself... or were you kidding and I did not 'catch it'? There is also proof that other species like dolphins, elephants, chimps, etc are but not parrots.
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Re: Is Your Parrot Self Aware or Not

Postby seagoatdeb » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:15 pm

Pajarita wrote:Sorry, I must have missed it. But, Wolf, of course there is proof that humans are self-aware! The fact that we figure out and understand what self-awareness is and we ponder about it in other species is proof in itself... or were you kidding and I did not 'catch it'? There is also proof that other species like dolphins, elephants, chimps, etc are but not parrots.


Well the science theory of the day says we are self aware and defines it in certain ways, but there are many schools of thought that define humans as "sleeping" and must make an effort to become self aware. I remember arguments in one philosophy course about how common herd mentality is a form of group hypnosis where all follow without thinking or using much awarness. Mammals are looked at as having to have a certain criteria to be thought of as self aware. Parrots are an ancient animal and their intelligence is very different from ours, so to prove self awarness, you may not be able to use the same criteria we use for mammals.

Sciences like math and chemistry, are proveable with cold hard proof. Many other sciences are based on observations, and interpretations, and that is what I term as the theory of the day, since it is always changing as new information becomes available.
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Re: Is Your Parrot Self Aware or Not

Postby Pajarita » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:10 am

I think that you might be confusing self-awareness with self-analysis which is what the 'sleeping' people lack. And yes, mob or herd mentality is well and thriving today, much more so than in the past and all thanks to the internet but, according to the experts (not me) this phenomenon doesn't touch self-awareness although it certainly does touch self-analysis.
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Re: Is Your Parrot Self Aware or Not

Postby seagoatdeb » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:29 pm

Pajarita wrote:I think that you might be confusing self-awareness with self-analysis which is what the 'sleeping' people lack. And yes, mob or herd mentality is well and thriving today, much more so than in the past and all thanks to the internet but, according to the experts (not me) this phenomenon doesn't touch self-awareness although it certainly does touch self-analysis.


nope not confusing it, just saying that there is different though out there and the defintition of what self awarness is. "Experts" are the people that hold the theory of the day. The defintion can change as time goes by. here are some current accepted meaning of self awarness.

Merrian Webbster dictionary defintion, " knowledge and awareness of your own personality or character"

Wikipedia "Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals"

On the above, and similar criteria we would have to decide if a parrot is self aware, and the above shows bias toward mammals especially humans. If we are gong to discuss parrots having self awarness, what definition should we use? Also by having a limited or narrow view of self awareness, it has led many to see animals as "less" than humans. I am glad Wolf asked this question, because the way we define these things show who we are as a society. Many cultures in the past held different defintions. It is a very interesting subject.
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Re: Is Your Parrot Self Aware or Not

Postby Wolf » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:40 pm

There are really no right or wrong answers to this question, the answer that each of us give is defined on out concept of what self awareness is. This may be based on many different things ranging from a scientific definition to a cultural definition or even one's own point of view after research and consideration. Personally, I see no real difference between myself and the parrot, except for our physical form which affects the natural tools that we have to process information and manipulate our environment. How can one define what self awareness is in another life form without taking these things into account?

I believe that there are different levels of self awareness, but we can't even come to agreement scientifically or otherwise as to what self awareness is much less how many levels there are if there are any levels at all.
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Re: Is Your Parrot Self Aware or Not

Postby seagoatdeb » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:34 pm

Wolf wrote:There are really no right or wrong answers to this question, the answer that each of us give is defined on out concept of what self awareness is. This may be based on many different things ranging from a scientific definition to a cultural definition or even one's own point of view after research and consideration. Personally, I see no real difference between myself and the parrot, except for our physical form which affects the natural tools that we have to process information and manipulate our environment. How can one define what self awareness is in another life form without taking these things into account?

I believe that there are different levels of self awareness, but we can't even come to agreement scientifically or otherwise as to what self awareness is much less how many levels there are if there are any levels at all.


I view it the same as you Wolf, There is bias, to seeing self awarness in different light. For example, who wants to see a cow as self aware if you eat them. When a parrot is eating crops, farmers dont want to see self awarness in parrots. I believe a number of animals know what they are and that they are separate from other animals. They may well think much more than we are aware of. We certainly know they feel, and form bonds with other species at times. i do not let science make all my desicions, unless it is a science of cold hard facts, any others then I only give them the relevance I believe they deserve. Gaugan seems very self aware to me, and Sunny is growing into his, and thats the way i see my parrots.
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Re: Is Your Parrot Self Aware or Not

Postby Wolf » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:09 am

I eat all kinds of meats, but I do not kid myself one bit about how self aware they may be. I used to do a fair amount of hunting and grew up with a profound respect for all other forms of life. I believe that the planet itself is alive and self aware and try to show my respect for it everyday. I even believe that the rocks are alive and have some form of awareness. Well... I don't believe that all of the rocks are alive, but in my present state, I can't tell which ones are and which ones are not, so I just don't take the chance and try to respect them all. But that is my world view.

Science is a wonderful thing and holds a major place in my world, but like everything else, science does not know everything.
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Re: Is Your Parrot Self Aware or Not

Postby liz » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:51 am

Luv u Wolf !
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