Parrots and Travel

[Pajarita]

Sure there would be saints, altruism, charity and compassion, and love for ones chilldren and why would you lump everyone together. It just means we do what satisfies self, thats all. Also, it is very easy to find people to agree with this, the majority of the philosphy class all agreed.

I believe that it is not better to take a rescued bird than a baby bird. Neither is Better in that kind of black and white way. I also believe that people who bought that bought a bird for a pet can become great owners. Many who buy a parrot because they believe they are rescuing may get overwhelmed and be a bad home. There is no black and white or absolute, so I dont put much stock in what Marc Johnson has to say about that. There are so many things to look at everytime someone takes a parrot that to be able to come to any kind of determination you would have to look at many factors for each situation. As long as we do the best we can for each being that comes into our lives, we are doing okay. Every member can become better in this group, no matter why they first got their parrot by doing the best they can.

I lump them together because, regardless of the action itself, the motivation would be the same: self pleasure - so, in that sense, Mother Theresa helped poor people for the same reason that a serial killer kills: because it gives them pleasure. Ergo, no true altruism or compassion as there would be no real selflessness or sympathy because 'others' would not ever be as important as 'I'. And, yes, I am sure that the philosophy class all agreed on it but I am also sure that if you walk out on the street and ask the first ten people that walk by if they believe in it, they will tell you they don't.

And we are not talking about who can become or not a good owner and whether that bird ends up with good care or not, we are talking about Michael's statement that everybody who gets a parrot does it for selfish reasons and that we are all equally guilty so the subject is motivation for the action and not the consequences of it for the bird. I don't agree with this blanket statement. The motivation that somebody has for rescuing a bird is not the same as the motivation behind somebody buying a baby. When you buy a baby, the main motivation is to please yourself but when you rescue a bird, the main motivation is to help it.

Now, I am not putting down people who have bought babies, mind you! It is entirely possible (and, actually, VERY likely) that newbies are not even aware of the serious overpopulation problem there is with parrots. I know of many, many people that having bought a baby and later becoming aware of the problem acquired their other birds from adoptions or rescues (Navre been a good example of this - and even Michael adopted after initially buying). Nobody is born knowing everything and the important thing is to learn and, as we do, adjust our actions to reflect this new knowledge. It took many, many years to convince people to adopt dogs and cats instead of buying them (and this is still a work in progress!) and it will take years to convince people not to buy baby birds but, eventually, it will happen (or, at least, I hope so).

[seagoatdeb]

While I tend to agree that in most cases people do what they do for reasons that satisfy something in themselves, I do not consider that to always be selfish. If you look at the definition of the word then you find that in addition to the reason being to satisfy some personal thing such as profit or pleasure that it also incudes the lack of consideration of others as part of its definition. If you disregard half of the definition of the word then every thing that we do could be said to be selfish and probably be right. Even allowing for the entire definition then most of the things we do could likely still qualify as being selfish, but not always.
Since the intended object in this discussion is birds. I really must say that my attitude for most of 60 years has been that birds do not belong in houses. I certainly never wanted a bird in my home, they are messy, loud, destructive, and poop every where. Then early one spring morning a strange bird arrived at my home wanting to come inside. I realized that it was not a native species of bird and so I let it in, I did not even think beyond the fact that it appeared to have been a tropical type bird, That was all that it took since it was in the low 30's that morning. My only thought at the time was that the bird could not survive in those temperatures. I knew absolutely nothing about birds other than chickens and that tropical animals can't survive for long in the cold. I started learning that day.
Now you can say that this had a selfish rationale in it, but since I had no motive other than the survival of that bird, I would have to disagree. Every act in regards to that bird from the point that the bird was out of danger of freezing may or may not have some selfish elements in it, but not the initial act. That bird is Kiki Senegal and from that time it was over a year before she finally quit taking chunks of my flesh in return for letting her in my home.

Common sense tells me that Michael did not mean selfish in any kind of negative sense. They way he used the word in context is what shows you which definition to use. I believe personal satisfaction played in your decision to bring the parrot in, because you would have felt bad and unsatisfied had you not.
I see it as a good thing. We are on this planet, with different views, religions, but on a practical level, we are here and it makes sense to me that our first job is to be who we are and we satisfy self because that keeps us true to who we are.

[seagoatdeb]

Sure there would be saints, altruism, charity and compassion, and love for ones chilldren and why would you lump everyone together. It just means we do what satisfies self, thats all. Also, it is very easy to find people to agree with this, the majority of the philosphy class all agreed.

I believe that it is not better to take a rescued bird than a baby bird. Neither is Better in that kind of black and white way. I also believe that people who bought that bought a bird for a pet can become great owners. Many who buy a parrot because they believe they are rescuing may get overwhelmed and be a bad home. There is no black and white or absolute, so I dont put much stock in what Marc Johnson has to say about that. There are so many things to look at everytime someone takes a parrot that to be able to come to any kind of determination you would have to look at many factors for each situation. As long as we do the best we can for each being that comes into our lives, we are doing okay. Every member can become better in this group, no matter why they first got their parrot by doing the best they can.

I lump them together because, regardless of the action itself, the motivation would be the same: self pleasure - so, in that sense, Mother Theresa helped poor people for the same reason that a serial killer kills: because it gives them pleasure. Ergo, no true altruism or compassion as there would be no real selflessness or sympathy because 'others' would not ever be as important as 'I'. And, yes, I am sure that the philosophy class all agreed on it but I am also sure that if you walk out on the street and ask the first ten people that walk by if they believe in it, they will tell you they don't.

And we are not talking about who can become or not a good owner and whether that bird ends up with good care or not, we are talking about Michael's statement that everybody who gets a parrot does it for selfish reasons and that we are all equally guilty so the subject is motivation for the action and not the consequences of it for the bird. I don't agree with this blanket statement. The motivation that somebody has for rescuing a bird is not the same as the motivation behind somebody buying a baby. When you buy a baby, the main motivation is to please yourself but when you rescue a bird, the main motivation is to help it.

Now, I am not putting down people who have bought babies, mind you! It is entirely possible (and, actually, VERY likely) that newbies are not even aware of the serious overpopulation problem there is with parrots. I know of many, many people that having bought a baby and later becoming aware of the problem acquired their other birds from adoptions or rescues (Navre been a good example of this - and even Michael adopted after initially buying). Nobody is born knowing everything and the important thing is to learn and, as we do, adjust our actions to reflect this new knowledge. It took many, many years to convince people to adopt dogs and cats instead of buying them (and this is still a work in progress!) and it will take years to convince people not to buy baby birds but, eventually, it will happen (or, at least, I hope so).

I had to read the word guilty in Michaels comment a few times an then put it in context with the whole piece of writing. I came to the conclusion he was saying we were not guilt free in the sense that we all sometimes do things that may not be as good as they can be because of our need to satisfy self.

When you buy a baby bird, there may be many reasons for it. When I buy one, it is to provide it with a good diet and a healthy loving home right from the beginning of its life. if I didnt who would get it? And would it be a good home, would it get good care? When you buy a rescued bird there are many reasons for that. When I do it is to help a bird that I am concerned is not having the best care. I dont see one as better than the other.

I dont have a problem with Michaels statement. He is just explaining that we are all human. We all do things we think are right and there is always some self interest. We all acess the risks and do the best we can. We will see the risks diferently but thats okay.

I dont believe people should be breeding the larger birds that I always see in the Sanctuarys, and I wouldnt buy a baby of those. But for smaller Pois, they can live in apartments or homes. they are small and quiet. They also tend to rehome well. I have to search and wait to even get one. Those I will buy as a baby. Parrots will not stop being pets. It is education that is going to help change peoples perceptions and give parrots a better life. My parrots are family to me.

[seagoatdeb]

Sure there would be saints, altruism, charity and compassion, and love for ones chilldren and why would you lump everyone together. It just means we do what satisfies self, thats all. Also, it is very easy to find people to agree with this, the majority of the philosphy class all agreed.

I believe that it is not better to take a rescued bird than a baby bird. Neither is Better in that kind of black and white way. I also believe that people who bought that bought a bird for a pet can become great owners. Many who buy a parrot because they believe they are rescuing may get overwhelmed and be a bad home. There is no black and white or absolute, so I dont put much stock in what Marc Johnson has to say about that. There are so many things to look at everytime someone takes a parrot that to be able to come to any kind of determination you would have to look at many factors for each situation. As long as we do the best we can for each being that comes into our lives, we are doing okay. Every member can become better in this group, no matter why they first got their parrot by doing the best they can.

I lump them together because, regardless of the action itself, the motivation would be the same: self pleasure - so, in that sense, Mother Theresa helped poor people for the same reason that a serial killer kills: because it gives them pleasure. Ergo, no true altruism or compassion as there would be no real selflessness or sympathy because 'others' would not ever be as important as 'I'. And, yes, I am sure that the philosophy class all agreed on it but I am also sure that if you walk out on the street and ask the first ten people that walk by if they believe in it, they will tell you they don't.

In reguards to Mother Theresa and the Serial Killer.
The motivation always involves what satisfies self, so yes it is true they both did what satisfied self, but their motives were different and what got satisfied in themsleves was different. If you feel compassion and act with compassion you do that because it makes you feel satisfied. If it makes you feel satisfied to serve others than you will consider those people above you.The philosophy class mostly agreed because we exhausted all the arguments and they arrived at that conclusion. You could not just walk out and ask 10 people without presenting well all the concepts.

[liz]

Wow, this tread has gone in all directions.
The thing is if we do not buy from pet shops or breeders the breeders would have a glut and not breed anymore. Yes, we all feel very bad for the pet shop and breeder birds. Short of shooting the breeders that is the best we can do at this time.
A rehome or rescue is a bird that had a rough life, did not conform to household or it's human needs to rehome because he can't take care of it or he realizes that he is not doing the best for the bird.
Lola came to me because the owner had cancer and wanted to find her a home while she could still choose. She was loved by her human and is now giving me love. Harley and Marley are with Wolf because I knew I just wasn't doing enough for them. I don't know how many homes they were in before I rescued them. I have cockatiels that came to me without names because they were passed around so much that the humans didn't remember their names. These are actually more rewarding to have because they have accepted my help and want to be with me instead of me owning them. Some birds have been thrown out to fend for themselves.
If I was getting birds from pet shops or breeders no telling where these little birds would be.

[seagoatdeb]

Where I live is Dog and Cat Country. There is no real avian vet in Kelowna. You have to travel to get to one. The only parrots sold in pet stores are budgies, cockatiels and GGC. Not very often you can get a parrot that needs rehoming. The one so called sanctuary here keeps the parrots in such a sorry way it is heart breaking.They refuse to rehome them unless it is to an older person for a companion and only very occasionally. They parrots are cage prisoners, no toys and very rarely get a home unless it is to someone old. The man who runs it is a real piece of work. I offered to make and donate a lot of toys for the parrots and he told me they would only destroy them and if he thought a parrot needed a toy he would just tie a block of wood to a coat hanger. He had two Senegals that were plucking and one really looked bad, but he refused to let them be adopted. I know they were not getting any kind of vet care. It still haunts me.

When a 15 year old Senegal came up on a website, my daughter and I went to rescue the parrot. If it was female she was taking it and a male would have fit better in my home. The Senegal is doing very well and is responding well to love and a proper cage with proper perches. In my long time with parrots only two were purchased as young birds, My Meyers is a sort of rescue, he would have been a show bird and then a breeder. He had no affection for humans when I first brought him home and was a very timid, scared bird.

My Red Belly was from a pet store, 17 years ago when I lived in Victoria. I had no intention of buying a baby poicephalus from a pet store, but I did go there to get supplies. I had seen the two baby red bellys a month before and when I noticed only one was left, I asked if they sold the other one. I was told they had amputated her toe and she was just healed, but she had attacked all the employees and one had deep healing wounds on his fingers. They had her housed in a small cage in the back by herself and they were all scared of her. I asked to see her and after a lot of convincing, the male employee, brought her out wearing gloves while she visciously attacked his gloves. I looked at her and I felt like I knew her somehow, I can never explain how. I began talking to her and she looked at me, and looked like she was melting. I held out my finger and she hopped on and I pet her and I felt like I had known and loved her forever. For the next week I could not get her out of my mind. I felt she needed special care and she had chosen me. My daughter said if I wanted another parrot to get the well socialized sibling, but I had no intention of getting another parrot and it was only this one that was calling to me. When I went back to the pet store she was still in the back room by herself in a small cage. I brought her home with me later that day. So she was a baby, but she was a rescue too. Travelling from Calgary to Victoria with her leg band caught in the crate in terrible pain, and then having her toe amputated in the pet store was horrific for that poor little thing. She loved me immediately but it took a long time and a lot of work for her to trust any other humans. My red belly is a very well adjusted sweet bird but her scars are still there, she panics in small cages or if she is covered in a cage.

I dont support buying from pet stores, but I could not leave her there either. There are more parrots in the market place all the time and I dont see it stopping without a lot of public education. The general population knows next to nothing about parrots, but they buy the most of them.

[liz]

I agree with you. The purchase from the pet store was a rescue. She really needed you. It is just a shame that you had to pay the man who was being so negligent.

I have paid some large rehoming fees just to get birds out of a situation. I answered a rehome for a white cockatiel. It did not seem like a rescue but I wanted him. I had never seen a white cockatiel before. While my daughter was making the arrangements to get him it came up in conversation that there was another one but too ugly to rehome. Instinct kicked in. Sight unseen I agreed to give the man $100 for both. They were brought to the car in little card board boxes. My daughter gave him the $100 before I could open the boxes and the man disappeared in the parking lot. If I had seen the birds before he got the money I would never have given him any money. I would have just taken them. Flutter, the white one, was so scared he was acting like a maniac. Phoenix, the one he called ugly, had been mutilated. Some one had chopped feathers all over his body including chopping off the hand part of his left wing. These 2 birds had been through so much that they should never have trusted another human. Flutter is still mental but he will talk to me if I don't get to close. It amazes me every time I look at mutilated little Phoenix, named after the bird that rose out of the ashes, come running to me.

Rambo's first human was not caring for him good enough and his second human stoled him to give him a better life. I did not know Rambo but knew of him. When 15 years later the second human was going to sell him because he no longer fit in her life. Without having kids she cared for this bird like a kid with all the freedom in the house of a 5 year old kid. I could not take the chance that he could end up in a lesser home where he would just be treated as a bird. I took him from her and did not offer to pay for him. I didn't know anything about parrots so Rambo had to teach me "Parrot 101".

I had at least 2 of every of my critters and decided Rambo should have a friend. I only knew Rambo and did not even think about it when a BF was offered for $300 with cage and toys. I drove to another state to get her. I was surprised since I had not done any research that a BF looked so different than a DYH. After seeing her and how she had to live it did not make any difference to me.

I had contacted the parrot forum to get help finding Rambo's new fiend. There was a member, Captwest who tried his best to talk me out of it. I did not listen to him so he helped me with my 2 different species of Amazon. I have been in the forum for 4 years now and still learning.

Well I went a little off topic with "Parrots and Travel'. My 2 cents turned into 25 cents so I will close this post and let you figure out what I said.

[Wolf]

Well I told you everything about the act of letting Kiki, into my home. I can assure you that there were absolutely no other thoughts involved in it. It is like, in many instances, when something must be done in an emergency situation that the mind shuts down except for accomplishing the task at hand. You can put anything that you want in it to justify your concept that it was still a selfish act, but that just shows how little you know about me. Keeping her and learning what she was and about her did satisfy inner desires, but that is another story.
I have debated this argument many times in the past from both directions, for and against, and in no case has either side been able to make a conclusive argument. It is great as a past time and amusement but largely is a waste of time.

[Pajarita]

I also started with parrots without looking for or even wanting one. I've always had canaries, dogs and cats and everybody who knew me also knew I loved all animals so, when a coworker of a friend of mine no longer wanted her amazon, she called me and asked: "Do you want a parrot?" and explained this woman no longer wanted it and could not find anybody who would take it (and no wonder! the bird was an amazon that bit, screamed and plucked ). So, I went to pick it up without even knowing what species or the circumstances for the simple reason that I felt bad for the bird. The woman had her for three years and said she was looking for another home for her because she had gotten herself a boyfriend who had a dog and the parrot did not get along with the dog but it was bunk, she lived in an apartment and I bet you the neighbors were complaining about the screams plus you couldn't even walk close to this bird because she would stretch herself out to bite you as you passed by and she has broken legs which prevented her from perching straight so, to 'normal' people, she was ugly, mean and a screamer! She was my first rescue and I had her for 18 years until she had to be put down due to cancer in her leg bones.

[seagoatdeb]

I agree with you. The purchase from the pet store was a rescue. She really needed you. It is just a shame that you had to pay the man who was being so negligent.

He charged $900 dollars for her too. I had to buy a cage and supplies. I though it was a very steep price but she is worth so much more to me.