Parrots and Horses (or other animals we train)

[patdbunny]

Bucking -

I ask, why doesn't she feel like being ridden? Is it an unpleasant experience for her? Sure, some horses do learn to take advantage, but in a lot of cases there is a physical issue underlying the behavioral one.

The vet was just out. Other than being fat, I don't know why. I ride bareback with a bareback pad, so it's not saddle fit. She bucks, I lunge, we ride.

little "smacks" with the lead line (you know what I mean - the tossing it in their face until they get a clue).

Ok, I misspoke. The lead line doesn't actually touch the horse. It's tossed in their face until the horse backs off.

"ask, Ask, TELL!". I think smacking with the lead line is definitely a TELL. IMO, you are missing the "ask" in a lot of the scenarios you describe. A quiet type of horse may take that and deal with it, but if you put too much pressure on a younger, hotter horse, you may find it does not work nearly so well.

I'm not at all experienced with horses. But what I'm doing is working for me with two arabs that didn't have a stop setting. Apparently I'm asking in a way they accept. I think their big thing was getting the twisted wire snaffle out of their mouths.

How did this happen? Why was his head where it could whack you? IMO this is a bit like a preventable bite from a bird, it is way better to prevent the situation than to consider punishment. IME you have to be very careful if you consider using a physical blow to discipline a horse around the head. Many will miss the point and become head shy instead, and if you don't respond within about 3 seconds, they definitely won't make the connection, so you have to be quick. Way better not to get into that position in the first place.

Well, he's a pushy domineering arab. I was standing next to him with him in a leading position. He turned his head hard into me and then tossed it against me. I equate this to having the bird on your hand as you're walking to the next room and it reaches down and bites you for no apparent reason. I don't allow either behavior. With the horses I have put myself in the position to get whacked by a turning head by accident. No one gets punished then, it's my fault.

A trained response to the one-rein stop is a great emergency brake, but it is very dangerous at speed and can cause a fall. Being aware of how much pressure a horse can take is very important, but it is also the case that if the horse TRUSTS your leadership and is paying attention to YOU a spook resulting in a bolt is pretty unlikely.

The prior owner played pony express with the arabs. They only had a bolt setting. The didn't trust much. I learned the one-rein stop for my safety while I was reconditioning them to not act like racehorses. I've pretty much desensitized the arabs to many things. The only one I worry about in terms of "exploding" is the quarter mare. She's not as experienced as they are and so I am more sensitive to her limits. She also seems lazy and is quick to explode when we work.

run off to evade capture - make them run until well past their desire to run, and make them run a little longer. This can work, although I think sending them away and then inviting them in again is more effective than running them off their feet. Conversely, with a bolter than does it to get out of work, doing this from the saddle can be quite effective.

So how do I send them away and invite them in when I haven't been able to capture them in the first place? Don't know what a bolter that's trying to get out of work looks like.

Extinction -- ignoring something and waiting for it to go away. Actually, this is very commonly used with bucking. You just keep the head up, keep going, and ignore it.

I'm not a good enough rider to get rid of the bucking this way. She'll get me off and then she'll know she can over and over and over again. What would getting off and lunging be?

A popular trainer has a couple of things he says that I like even though he's a coffee table book kind of guy. One is "It takes as long as it takes" -- you can't always expect to get the result you need immediately.

True, you should not expect immediate results for most things. I can't agree with "it takes as long as it takes" when we're dealing with safety. A horse can kill you. A bird can't kill you, but it can seriously maim you. You indicated a very real concern for your husband's eye. I suffered temporary nerve damage from an eclectus bite. I didn't know it was going to be temporary at the time. When it happened I was pretty distressed that I couldn't feel three fingers on my right hand since at the time I had an office job that entailed a lot of typing. I've seen people with earlobes and nose tips taken off by parrots.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

We are getting way off parrots here, but I do have a few thoughts if I'm not making you crazy. Birds I'm learning, horses I know pretty well.

The vet was just out. Other than being fat, I don't know why. I ride bareback with a bareback pad, so it's not saddle fit. She bucks, I lunge, we ride.

Did you discuss the bucking with your vet? If she's fat, it's probably not discomfort from pressure on her spine, but some horses are actually less comfortable bareback than with a saddle distributing the pressure away from the spine.

I think their big thing was getting the twisted wire snaffle out of their mouths.

Yeah, that was a good move! What do you use now? A lot of horses, especially hot ones, will run through pain, and a twisted wire snaffle is about as painful as a bit can get, especially in heavy hands.

The only one I worry about in terms of "exploding" is the quarter mare. She's not as experienced as they are and so I am more sensitive to her limits. She also seems lazy and is quick to explode when we work.

. Is she from Impressive lines? Are you sure she's not an HYPP horse? To me, what you are describing says pain. Somewhere.

So how do I send them away and invite them in when I haven't been able to capture them in the first place?

. Well it helps if you can do some work in a roundpen or other enclosed area first. But the point is that if the horse runs away when you try to catch it, you send it away from you with body language, and when it goes away, you turn your back and start to head towards the gate. Eventually they will probably come to you. This is a case where bribery and food rewards don't necessarily do any harm.

Don't know what a bolter that's trying to get out of work looks like.

. A horse may become a chronic bolter out of pain, out of frustration, or it just becomes a learned behavior. Some horses might start bolting off to avoid disciplined arena work if the work has been made unpleasant. My point was that if you have a horse that is a true nuisance bolter -- that isn't hurting, afraid, or trying to run away from rider inflicted discomfort -- sometimes making them go further than they really wanted will take the Mickey out of them. But I see it as a last resort.

I'm not a good enough rider to get rid of the bucking this way. She'll get me off and then she'll know she can over and over and over again. What would getting off and lunging be?

. Smart. Especially if you are doing disciplined longing, not just running her in circles. Running her until she's too tired to act up will just eventually make her too fit to handle. You do lose a bit when you get off in response to a misbehavior, but it beats hospitalization. The point is to use the longeing to get her listening to you and trusting you, not to wear her out.

I can't agree with "it takes as long as it takes" when we're dealing with safety. A horse can kill you.

Yes, in an immediate danger situation, you do what is necessary to get you out of danger. But with horses, trying to use force can GET you killed. You can't physically push them around and inflicting pain can cause them to really freak out -- a panicked horse is way more dangerous than one which is acting out.

[patdbunny]

Whew! I found the thread again!

Anyway, I thought of another similarity between birds and horses. Desensitizing horses and birds - both entail exposing the animal to new and possibly scary situations. Just as with a horse, you keep the pressure on until the animal comes to realize the new/scary thing is not dangerous. You want the experience to be uncomfortable, but not terrifying.

You keep the animal in the presence of the experience until it relaxes and realizes there's no danger. If you remove the animal from the experience before it relaxes and realizes there's no danger, you actually reinforce that the experience is dangerous/scary and make fearful behaviors worse.

When I raise babies, I do not protect them from new and scary situations. I purposefully expose them to scary things and let them realize there's nothing to be afraid of. I am careful not to terrify them, but I allow them to experience uncomfortable situations in a safe manner.

Just as with horses, I think people remove their birds prematurely from new/uncomfortable/scary situations and inadvertently reinforce fearful behaviors. Scary is ok, terrifying is not.

[Dave]

" When I raise babies, I do not protect them from new and scary situations. I purposefully expose them to scary things and let them realize there's nothing to be afraid of. I am careful not to terrify them, but I allow them to experience uncomfortable situations in a safe manner."

Bet you raised good kids, Pat

Animals (and people) will always take the path of least resistance if given the opportunity, even if it is not in their best interest.

[patdbunny]

I think the owners believe they're doing what's best for their bird by removing them from the scary experience - "Oh, it scares Polly! Poor Polly! I don't want Polly to be scared!"

I don't think people understand that in the bird's mind it's, "Oh! That's scary! Oh! My owner says we need to hurry away from the scary thing; therefore, this scary thing must be dangerous!"

Lesson learned is next time the scary thing is encountered, the bird will react with more fear because you've taught it that the thing was dangerous.

On the other hand, if we do not remove them from the scary thing:
Human - "Oh, it scares Polly! Well, it's just a stuffed animal that's not harmful to Polly. No reason to remove Polly away from the toy." Human to bird - "It's ok Polly, it's just a toy." And we help the bird understand it's not a dangerous thing, and we expose the bird until it relaxes.
Bird - "Oh! That's scary! Hmm. . . But my owner doesn't seem scared. Hmm . . . my owner's being very calm about all of this. Hmm . . . my owner not afraid of this thing. Hmm. . . I think I'll touch it with my beak and see for myself. Oh! Hey! It's kinda squishy. I guess it's nothing to be afraid of!"

Lesson learned is next time I see this thing it's not scary and might be in need of further exploration.

I'm a strong believer that the animal takes cues from us as to how it should react to its environment and new things. I notice in both my horses and my birds, the more I help them overcome a scary experience, the more trusting the animal is of me. When I first got my grey arab, he really had a hard time listening to me - he was a very reactionary horse. I discovered that when I helped him overcome something scary, his behavior immediately changed afterwards and he was much more compliant when being ridden.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I think there is a nuance here that is missing in the description for both birds and horses and that is that you don't introduce a scary stimulus until you have a basic level of trust established, and you never introduce more stimulus than a given individual can handle mentally at a given time. You have to read the animal carefully and accurately. I'm thinking Patdbunny is very instinctive in this because she has had much success, but some people, especially with horses, overface to the point of panic and at that point no learning takes place and the only memory is terror and things get worse rather than better. Either the animal shuts down completely, or it is even more fearful the next time out. Certainly, you have to be careful that the animal doesn't learn that showing fearful behaviors gets it "out of work" or out of a situation, but pressing the point only works if the animal isn't overfaced and remains enough in its right mind to learn from the experience. Choosing what you bite off and having a basic trusting relationship established so they are inclined to follow your lead is of paramount importance in MHO.

[patdbunny]

Entranced - I completely agree with you. That's why I wrote "Scary is ok, terrifying is not."

I do not disagree with your statement: "Choosing what you bite off and having a basic trusting relationship established so they are inclined to follow your lead is of paramount importance in MHO." But for my personal experience with birds and horses, I went the backwards route - I used scary situations to establish trust.

For birds, the amount of fear I like to see is when the bird stands really tall slightly leaning away from the object, looks concerned, may be moving its head around to see where it can flee to, wings may be flicking like it wants to get away; but there is no actual movement to get away from the object. Any actual movement away from the scary object is too scary.

Absolutely it's about nuance and a "feel" for the animal. Unfortunately, that's not necessarily something that can be taught. I think we're doing well if we can at least bring this alternate view for people to at least think about. I feel a lot of questions can be answered if people just sit and observe their animal and then put themselves in the animals' position.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I didn't mean to imply we were disagreeing, I just wanted to emphasize something that may not come as naturally to some people. I wanted to make the point a little more prominent in the discussion.

I guess I'm not as convinced you can create trust where there is none by deliberately introducing something scary, though. I think you need a kernel of trust to build on. You may be able to successfully stress that seed of trust and come out of a successful resolution with it stronger... but I don't think I'd work with a bird (or horse) that was afraid of me, still, by introducing a scary stimulus. YMMV.

[patdbunny]

An animal that's completely afraid of me - that's a whole different story. I'm only talking about an animal that will let the human work with it like a horse that will allow you to lead it, a bird that will sit on your hand.

Then again, it's not a whole different story - The human becomes the scary object that's being introduced.