Correlation between sex of owner and food management (Poll)

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I stand by my reaction to the nature of the poll.

I would agree that every interaction is training at some level -- that's true no matter what kind of animal you are interacting with, including humans. What I meant to quote was "training is everything". At any rate, the point was that I was getting the impression that training was of the utmost importance in the relationship.

I think I adequately addressed the issue of what circumstances would lead me to practice it. I see it as a tool, not a fixed part of the routine. I think saws are useful, but I don't carry one around every day. I get it out when I need it. I don't see any benefit in removing food from the cages, and as others have pointed out it provides a nice hedge against fluctuations in my schedule, which is not very regular. If I had a bird that was being very problematic with hormonal behavior I might try reducing the portion of food left to reduce an impression of abundance, but I would probably still leave the food during the day, just leave less of it. Same for reducing weight in an overweight bird.

I also am going to argue that it isn't a correct analogy that we are "food managed" as humans. Nor that birds are naturally food managed Those of us living in developed nations with reasonable incomes have access to food at all times. We don't EAT all the time, but food is rarely more than a few steps away. At work I set my own lunch and break times, there's a snack machine down the hall, and I keep some emergency lunch items in my office. I might manage my own intake in order to manage my weight, but it is MY choice, I'm not physically denied access to food. And birds, in nature, are surrounded by food at all times. It's feeding behavior that has a daily pattern, not food availability. So in my mind, setting up a situation in which food is only available for brief periods is actually more artificial. I agree it might be better to set that food up in a foraging manner and I may work towards that, as that would be more natural and more entertaining. Even so, I don't see my birds eating all the time either, just because the food is there. They still tend to have a morning/evening pattern which I reinforce with fresh food deliveries.

[Michael]

When food is in a bowl within beak's reach the choice of "fly and work hard" (which uses many calories in itself) to eat or not is no longer a question. And in these developed countries, particularly the United States, obesity runs rampant because of this excessive availability of food. I don't think animals have a natural apparatus to know when to stop eating unless either food runs out or they are full. However, with scarcity and competition in nature, animals are naturally evolved to eat when it's available and figure things out later. For this reason, I think in the captive environment, animals (and humans) tend to overeat when food is free fed.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

It makes so much sense and solves so many problems that I still can't understand what all the opposition to basic food management is.

Is it because people don't believe the benefits? Is it because they are too lazy to follow through with it? Is it because they think their bird will starve? Is it because they think their bird won't like them for not giving them more food? Is it because they feel guilty giving it just the amount of food they need rather than spoiling them with more?

None of the above. I don't believe there are benefits to doing it as a matter of course, without specific cause. What you are describing with Kili reminds me a lot of people who complain their horse gets "too high" when fed too much. While there are nuances in that discussion, to a large extent, an overfed horse gets fat, and the "too high" personality is what the horse is when it's not going hungry. It usually needs more training and more exercise, not less food. It's in essence being starved into submission even though what it is doing is reducing its activity level to conserve resources rather than losing a lot of weight. I don't yet know birds well enough to know if that's applicable to birds, but I suspect it may be.

The way you have asked those questions is pretty baiting, and it sounds a bit like "I'm so clearly correct that if you disagree with me there must be a flaw in your thinking or character." It doesn't really invite discussion to suggest that laziness and spoiling are what's really motivating the disagreement. I don't mean to get personal, but I'm not sure you realize the tone you are conveying. I'm assuming you don't really mean it like that, but it does sound like that. To actually attempt to answer them:

I believe there are benefits in some circumstances. I don't believe there are benefits in all circumstances.

No I don't think my birds will starve, but I do think they might experience a level of hunger that it isn't necessary for them to experience.

No, I don't think they "won't like me". For one thing, I'm not sure they would even really comprehend that it was my decision to do things like that. If anything, it might promote a display of enthusiasm for my appearence that was more motivated by the possible appearence of food rather than any affinity. Not doing things for your pets because they "might not like me" is a mistake made by people without a lot of experience usually. Few here fall into that category.

The final one is hard to address... but let my try to unwrap it this way: if my birds were overweight because I was providing too much food, then perhaps it could be argued that I was spoiling them with "more than they need". If they are maintaining a healthy weight, it doesn't take unfounded guilt to explain why I don't see a need to restrict their intake. While I'm not perfect at maintaining my own weight, I try very hard to manage things so that my pets are healthy and that includes restricting food and increasing exercise where that's needed to attain healthy weight. Conversely, if they are in healthy weight, in what way are they "spoiled"?

Now what I'd like to hear is some kind of evidence that parrots spend all day eating in the wild

Nobody is locking the food out of reach, are they?

that mild food management (scheduled feeding and/or up to 10% reduction) is unhealthy, that mild food management worsens behavior, that free feed reduces aggression/hormonal behavior compared to food management, etc.

How about taking the view that free feeding is neutral, neither promoting nor reducing those behaviors. Should I not respond in a similar vein and challenge you to demonstrate that mild food reduction does not have the result you desire because it reduces the ability to spend excess energy on non-survival behaviors and makes the bird so concerned about food that securing it becomes the number one priority? Is that not a mild form of "starving into submission". I challenge you to fully consider the analogy to horsekeeping I've made. Are you sure it doesn't apply?

To me it just seems crazy not to and I still have yet to hear specific benefits to parrot or owner from free feeding or cases where free feeding parrots solved behavioral problems.

Guess I'll be crazy then.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

When food is in a bowl within beak's reach the choice of "fly and work hard" (which uses many calories in itself) to eat or not is no longer a question. And in these developed countries, particularly the United States, obesity runs rampant because of this excessive availability of food. I don't think animals have a natural apparatus to know when to stop eating unless either food runs out or they are full. However, with scarcity and competition in nature, animals are naturally evolved to eat when it's available and figure things out later. For this reason, I think in the captive environment, animals (and humans) tend to overeat when food is free fed.

Obesity is not so much correlated with food abundance as it is with lack of movement. But let's not bring that into this discussion... can we stipulate if the birds aren't overweight, this isn't a factor in the discussion at all?

[kaylayuh]

I've chosen not to food manage for a variety of reasons, the bulk of which is because it just didn't work for my birds. When I got the budgies, I free fed until they were used to their surrounds and then switched to two distinct meals. At the point I switched to two distinct meals, the budgies started losing weight. They wouldn't eat the food at the times when I put it in there and were losing so much weight that it became dangerous to continue to food manage.

When I got Cheney Bird, I asked specifically what feeding regimine they had him on. Aside from being interested in what he was eating, I was also interested in when he was eating. The rescue would leave a pellet and seed mixute in his cage at all times and supplement that with fresh foods for breakfast and dinner. This is precisely the schedule we've taken up.

Even while free feeding, my birds are no more hormonal, agressive or misbehaved. Once they budgies were placed back onto a free feeding regimine, they became more confident that they're needs were being met and more willing to interact with me. Cheney Bird also has no problem interacting with me and will do so happily, no need for food management necessary.

Aside from that, it became a personal decision as well in consideration to my mental health diagnosis and how that affects every day life. Being bipolar, I am on medications that sometimes change, sometimes make me more tired than others, and have all other kinds of effects. While my birds basic needs for food, water, and social interaction are always met, it's much easier to do so (and remember to do so when I'm feeling particularly depressed or manic) than it would be if I had them on a strict schedule.

My birds don't spend all day eating. They spend most of the day flying around the apartment, playing with their toys, or interacting with me. It's very unusual if they do much more than pick at their food once or twice during the day and do the bulk of their eating in the morning before I wake up or in the evening when they get fresh foods.

And again, aside from all of those reasons, my birds are a healthy weight, active and more than happy to interact with me with the situation we have now. I don't find your way to be wrong, but I do find it to be wrong for my birds and our living situation. However, if I had a bird in the future that needed food management for whatever reason, I'd be happy to use it.

[Michael]

Obesity is not so much correlated with food abundance as it is with lack of movement. But let's not bring that into this discussion... can we stipulate if the birds aren't overweight, this isn't a factor in the discussion at all?

Except for outdoor freeflighted parrots (and on a regular basis for that matter), I cannot imagine anyone's parrots getting the remotely close to the workload sustained in the wild. Now how much of that natural exercise is required to stay healthy vs how much is out of necessity, we cannot know. However, even indoor freeflighted and aviary parrots don't have enough motivation or space to get into a real flight regime.

I know a big concern for people who clip is that they are worried their parrots will be flying all over the place all the time. As far as I can tell, this simple isn't true. I don't know anyone's birds spending more than 0-10% of their out of cage time in the air. Of course wild parrots don't spend all their time flying either but first off you can equate all daylight hours as out of cage time so even if the percentages are the same, they are getting 12 hours of out time while our parrots get varying amounts based on what we can allot. Then there's of course the constriction of walls and the proximity of all things good that they don't have to do much flying to get to it. So I don't think it's unreasonable to say that our parrot's natural digestive capacities exceed their daily physical exertion. And all this presumes extensive indoor freeflight, foraging, trick training, and whatever else gets them to move their butt. I'm not even going to go into clipped and all day caged parrots!

So if you're going to argue obesity based on lack of exercise, virtually all of us are guilty of it off the bat and should not be free feeding because we are incapable of providing sufficient exercise opportunities.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

So if you're going to argue obesity based on lack of exercise, virtually all of us are guilty of it off the bat and should not be free feeding because we are incapable of providing sufficient exercise opportunities.

I was arguing that if obesity is not present, it's not relevant to the subject being debated.

[Giantmoa]

okay question: I feed rainbows pellet diet out through foraging oppurtunities so none of it is just sitting in a bowl. Is that considered "food management"?

[Michael]

Definitely, unless the foraging is so easy it may as well be sitting in a bowl. For all intents and purposes we're considering anything besides free feed in a bowl to be some kind of food management. But that's a great question (and a better way of feeding it if you have the opportunity to do so). However, I personally prefer trick training to foraging opportunities because it helps me build a stronger relationship with my parrots as the source of good things.

[entrancedbymyGCC]

I think if we are going to have a reasonable debate here, "food management" has to have a stricter definition than that. My understanding was that what was being discussed under the label "food management" was the practice of restricting access to food and/or controlling the timing and amount of food with the goal of modifying behavior. Restricting food for the purposes of controlling weight would not be considered "food management" nor would foraging nor would witholding certain types of food for health or nutritional reasons.