Belgian petstore horror...

[Cage Cleaner]

You need to read our posts more carefully. I feel that you make many assumptions about what we say that simply aren't there. It's quite a bit of misinterpretation. The example with Cheeky is that she said she doesn't need to use the same kind of positive punishment with the SPECIFIC thoroughbred as with the other horses. It wasn't a contradiction. I have myself mentioned that training strategy differs with each horse.

And the example you bring up as a highlight in your latest post specifically states that that method is used when a horse exhibits dominant behavior.

Before we go on, please go back and read these posts again. If you are still confused about what is said, and continue to find supposed contradictions, feel free to ask me questions. But, as this is a parrot forum, and not a horse-training forum, I have to say that I don't think there is much of a point in continuing this conversation. I'm also finding that I am having to correct your assumptions, and continuously clarifying myself every time I have to post. So, I apologize but I am not finding anything to be had from this.

I understand that you have quite a bit of pride in the links that you posted. I did scan them, but I didn't find anything that convinced my otherwise, due to what I know from my own personal experience from working with horses. I also couldn't find the citations for sources used for these websites.

And, I'm sure many people have great ideas about how to train horses, and that there are indeed many ways of doing so. However, the trainer I work for is working with horses that are competing at the -very highest- level of our discipline, and doing extremely well at even this level. One of the mares just won the Grand Prix event a little bit ago. I believe I have face-to-face access to a very well-reputed source.

So, please excuse my confidence in what I believe in, and excuse the fact that I use personal anecdotes.

[rebeccaturpeinen]

Whispering works with horses too.

I like you Liz

[gabbagabbawill]

You need to read our posts more carefully. I feel that you make many assumptions about what we say that simply aren't there. It's quite a bit of misinterpretation.

I have based my responses purely on what you have typed. I have not made any assumptions.

The example with Cheeky is that she said she doesn't need to use the same kind of positive punishment with the SPECIFIC thoroughbred as with the other horses. It wasn't a contradiction. I have myself mentioned that training strategy differs with each horse.

Actually her statement was: "I would never do it with my thoroughbred as he would have a mental break down".

Why would the horse have a mental breakdown? Why does she think the horse would respond differently? Why wouldn't horses other than a thoroughbred have a "mental breakdown" if smacked or kicked? The statement that it's ok to do it to most horses, but not this one b/c it could be affected mentally is contradictory.

And the example you bring up as a highlight in your latest post specifically states that that method is used when a horse exhibits dominant behavior.

Does it matter when it's used? You say that like "it's ok to hit sometimes, but not others". Try applying that mentality to a child or another pet. You can't.

Before we go on, please go back and read these posts again. If you are still confused about what is said, and continue to find supposed contradictions, feel free to ask me questions.

I'm not confused at all, and I have read your posts several times to make sure I understand what you're saying. It seems pretty clear to me.

But, as this is a parrot forum, and not a horse-training forum, I have to say that I don't think there is much of a point in continuing this conversation.

Maybe YOU should go back and read YOUR posts. You were the one who brought animal training other than parrots into the conversation. You said "For horses, dogs, cats, etc., the right reaction would be reacting in a dominant manner". You are completely wrong in this assumption. It has been proven by behaviour scientists to be a complete MYTH to combating "dominant behaviour" or more appropriately termed "aggressive behaviour".

That said, this is Michael's forum, and this is in the "off topic" area, so if he wishes this discussion be stopped, then he has every right to intervene, and if he asked, I would certainly curb my posts.

You are right to agree that dominant theory and punishment styles of training don't work on birds, and I am here to point out to you that they are NOT needed in training ANY other animals, including dogs, cats, and horses.

I'm also finding that I am having to correct your assumptions, and continuously clarifying myself every time I have to post. So, I apologize but I am not finding anything to be had from this.

You haven't "corrected" a single statement I have made. It seems to me that you want to defend your position, which is why you keep responding to my posts.

I understand that you have quite a bit of pride in the links that you posted. I did scan them, but I didn't find anything that convinced my otherwise, due to what I know from my own personal experience from working with horses. I also couldn't find the citations for sources used for these websites.

Some of the links I posted were their own source and authority on the matter. I have already said I can't change your mind, but I can and will disagree with you.

And, I'm sure many people have great ideas about how to train horses, and that there are indeed many ways of doing so. However, the trainer I work for is working with horses that are competing at the -very highest- level of our discipline, and doing extremely well at even this level. One of the mares just won the Grand Prix event a little bit ago. I believe I have face-to-face access to a very well-reputed source.

I don't doubt your ability or achievements or success with the methods which you employ. However, the irony in your statement is that you are using your horse's achievements as a merit to why you believe it's ok to hit a horse. I don't think that's ok.

So, please excuse my confidence in what I believe in, and excuse the fact that I use personal anecdotes.

Your confidence is noted.

[Cage Cleaner]

I rest my case, heh.

[Leanne Fox]

Hi, we had one in Auckland, NZ as well. Went in to get some gear, look anyway....their huge cage with about 8 Tiels in it, at 11am, was filthy, pooey water, naff food...I walked back out. Got home and rang our SPCA who had had complaints about this store before...yeah so why were they still trading with live stock? We left it a few weeks before going back to check, things can move sloooow here in NZ, and YAY!! no birds.....just a Lab pup with a hernia at tum button sight also constipated, I got home and rang the SPCA again, pleading to not let this chain have any live stock pets...AT ALL. Going back to check next weekend. When will people learn, NEVER buy a pet from a store!!!!!

[TheNzJessie]

in Thailand they poach elephants steal the babies and chain all 4 of their legs to trees for the first 2 years of their life, by the time the elephant is at adult life it believes it will never get away so they can get away with just trying a piece of rope to one leg and to a wooden stake. this of course would never hold an adult Asian elephant in place, but because its been chained for so long they give up. not to mention while they were infants if they fought they were hit with bullhooks.

[TheNzJessie]

Hi, we had one in Auckland, NZ as well. Went in to get some gear, look anyway....their huge cage with about 8 Tiels in it, at 11am, was filthy, pooey water, naff food...I walked back out. Got home and rang our SPCA who had had complaints about this store before...yeah so why were they still trading with live stock? We left it a few weeks before going back to check, things can move sloooow here in NZ, and YAY!! no birds.....just a Lab pup with a hernia at tum button sight also constipated, I got home and rang the SPCA again, pleading to not let this chain have any live stock pets...AT ALL. Going back to check next weekend. When will people learn, NEVER buy a pet from a store!!!!!

what store was this?

[liz]

Hi, we had one in Auckland, NZ as well. Went in to get some gear, look anyway....their huge cage with about 8 Tiels in it, at 11am, was filthy, pooey water, naff food...I walked back out. Got home and rang our SPCA who had had complaints about this store before...yeah so why were they still trading with live stock? We left it a few weeks before going back to check, things can move sloooow here in NZ, and YAY!! no birds.....just a Lab pup with a hernia at tum button sight also constipated, I got home and rang the SPCA again, pleading to not let this chain have any live stock pets...AT ALL. Going back to check next weekend. When will people learn, NEVER buy a pet from a store!!!!!

Hurray for Leanne.

[liz]

My cousin stole an abused horse and hid it on my father's farm. It was afraid of everything and just shivered alot.

Dad gave it grain and turned it loose in the pasture with the cows. Freedom went to it's head and it became wild. Since my father was the first loving and caring contact it was a puppy with him. It would follow him through the field wherever he went.

When Dad got sick he gave up the cows but would not give up Blaze because of what he had already been through. Part of the fence fell down and Dad was not able to work on it so he told Blaze to stay in there. He did.

When I had to go in the fence that horse used me for entertainment. I could hear him coming from a distance and knew I could not get out fast enough so I just stood still, pulled my arms in and closed my eyes. He would come so close that the wind would about knock me over. Then he would laugh.

When my dad could no long walk it was up to me to care for him. It was winter and Blaze had to be put in the barn at night and let out twice a day to go to the spring. I tried to stay out of his reach but one day he grabbed my coat and shook me. I smacked him on the neck with an open hand. He had learned a new game. Pretend to bite Liz and she will smack my neck. He never bit me again but from then on I was Dad's replacement with a twist.

If I had hit or kicked that horse my dad would have made my life miserable.

You don't hit or kick any animal. That is abuse. You have to find other ways to deal with each one individually.

[laducockatiel]

My cousin stole an abused horse and hid it on my father's farm. It was afraid of everything and just shivered alot.

Dad gave it grain and turned it loose in the pasture with the cows. Freedom went to it's head and it became wild. Since my father was the first loving and caring contact it was a puppy with him. It would follow him through the field wherever he went.

When Dad got sick he gave up the cows but would not give up Blaze because of what he had already been through. Part of the fence fell down and Dad was not able to work on it so he told Blaze to stay in there. He did.

When I had to go in the fence that horse used me for entertainment. I could hear him coming from a distance and knew I could not get out fast enough so I just stood still, pulled my arms in and closed my eyes. He would come so close that the wind would about knock me over. Then he would laugh.

When my dad could no long walk it was up to me to care for him. It was winter and Blaze had to be put in the barn at night and let out twice a day to go to the spring. I tried to stay out of his reach but one day he grabbed my coat and shook me. I smacked him on the neck with an open hand. He had learned a new game. Pretend to bite Liz and she will smack my neck. He never bit me again but from then on I was Dad's replacement with a twist.

If I had hit or kicked that horse my dad would have made my life miserable.

You don't hit or kick any animal. That is abuse. You have to find other ways to deal with each one individually.

You did the right thing. Even though you did not hit the horse, you gently smacked it on the neck so it knew that what it did was wrong....unfortunately though, he thought of it as a game