Negative Reinforcement does not mean Punishment

[Cage Cleaner]

Negative reinforcement is further ineffective because of desensitization. Over time the parrot will get used to the aversive and taking it away won't be so effective.

Satiation works the same when using a positive reinforcement approach using food, praise, or physical affection to reinforce behavior. Does this mean positive reinforcement is not effective? Certainly not.

IMO, there is far too much baggage and confusion associated with any training approach that incorporates anything other than "positive reinforcement" to shape behavior, and this baggage stems from ignorance, or downright deceit, at all levels, from private owner to "professional" trainers.

Using the positive reinforcement approach popularized today, there comes a point in time real quick when the animal realizes there is food involved in the behavior equation, and it EXPECTS that food. When the animal performs a behavior that does not meet your criteria, that food is taken away, which is NEGATIVE PUNISHMENT in accordance with operant conditioning principals. You are, in essence, taking away (negative) a stimulus (food) to decrease behavior (punishment for wrong behavior). Animals are smart, especially parrots, they know what is at stake during training after you establish a precedence.

People are either mislead by "trainers" trying to sell a product, or ignorance, into believing that "negative" and "punishment" have a draconian context when it comes to shaping behaviors, and that is simply NOT the case. You either add or subtract something from the equation to either discourage or reinforce behaviors. Period.

When a pup bites too hard on momma's teet while feeding, momma nips at the pup, and the pup learns not to apply so much force. When a bird uses too much force preening another, it gets nipped as well. Both are examples of positive punishment in accordance with operant conditioning practices, and both approaches have been effective in shaping behaviors since.....well, forever.

There are FOUR quadrants in operant conditioning, and a good trainer needs to learn how, and when, to employ ALL of them.

Best to you and yours.

This post makes some good points, even if it sounds a bit angry.

[Michael]

Satiation works the same when using a positive reinforcement approach using food, praise, or physical affection to reinforce behavior. Does this mean positive reinforcement is not effective? Certainly not.

Completely wrong here and this is the fundamental misunderstanding of the application of positive reinforcement. Satiation is temporary. Desensitization is more long term. A bird's gotta eat every day. It wants to come out of the cage, it wants toys, attention, etc. Yes, if you give too much of those it won't care about them. But as soon as you stop giving them for a little bit, the bird will work again to gain them. Not the case with negative reinforcement.

People are either mislead by "trainers" trying to sell a product, or ignorance, into believing that "negative" and "punishment" have a draconian context when it comes to shaping behaviors, and that is simply NOT the case. You either add or subtract something from the equation to either discourage or reinforce behaviors. Period.

It's not draconian, it is simply ineffective and counterproductive with parrot training. You don't seem to have any parrots so I wouldn't expect you to have any idea what you're talking about. Parrots are prey animals and it doesn't take much of an aversive to elicit a fight or flight reflex. We neither want them to be scared and fly away from us nor bite us. So applying punishment would greatly contradict all the taming/training we have to do just to keep them willing to be around humans. Parrots aren't domesticated like cats or dogs. The only reason these wild animals have potential as pets is because they are so highly intelligent that they can be trained to coexist in the human environment.

But when you start purposefully (or accidentally) working with aversives, the parrot has no reason to let you do it. It just bites or flees and avoids you. You're not going to starve it to death so it will continue getting toys/food in its cage and just grow apart from the owner.

Although negative reinforcement, negative punishment, and positive punishment may be effective at training other animals, they are barely effective and often detrimental when applied to parrots. The parrots quickly generalize the aversive stimulus to the trainer as a whole (in some ways too smart for their own good). And the last thing we as pet owners want to do is ruin our relationships with out pets so we are only left with positive reinforcement as a primary tool for taming and training.

[GlassOnion]

What a can of worms I've opened

[Jamie Edie]

This post makes some good points, even if it sounds a bit angry.

That is not my intent, and if my post came off as angry, I apologize.

But as soon as you stop giving them for a little bit, the bird will work again to gain them. Not the case with negative reinforcement.

Removing something from the environment to reinforce behaviors IS negative reinforcement in accordance with operant conditioning principles.

What a can of worms I've opened...

On the contrary, IMO, it is important to discuss approaches to training and conditioning in order to develop a better understanding of them. Especially If a discussion leads an individual to conduct further research, and allows for the implementation of a more effective approach to training and shaping behaviors.

Many, if not most, pet trainers are introduced to operant conditioning principles through positive reinforcement and "clicker" training, however, positive reinforcement is only part of the equation. EVERY caretaker employs the full gamut of conditioning approaches, whether they realize it or not, and rather than fear and discourage the use of all but positive reinforcement, I believe it is better to research and examine all the approaches used to shape, and discourage, behaviors.

While there are many factors that can influence behaviors, operant conditioning simply attempts to shape behaviors by adding or subtracting something to either encourage or discourage behaviors. Some behaviors, like trick training for example, are easier to shape using positive reinforcement, other behaviors are rewarding in and of themselves, like say chewing on power cables or your ear, and may need a different approach to efficiently shape or discourage.

No single approach, be it positive, negative, reward or punishment, is appropriate for EVERY behavior in EVERY circumstance, so the more tools you have in the tool box, the better.

[Michael]

It's easy to talk about in theory but a whole other story when actually applied. Parrots are quite different from many animals that people are accustomed to training.

[Cage Cleaner]

I think what he's saying is that all four components of conditioning are a factor when training, regardless of whether we are aware that we are using them, or not. And being aware of how they play into training makes training more effective.

[Michael]

Sure, they all happen. But mainly just positive reinforcement is effective at taming/training a parrot while maintaining it as a pet. I would guess this holds true to an extent for other animals as well but have no experience to say so. As for the other methods, they mainly apply to parrot training by consciously avoiding inadvertent use of them. I have a very hard time coming up with examples of effective nr, np, and pp.

[jrz2az]

Interesting thread. And maybe this is answered somewhere else too, but how in the world can I get my to stop screaming at the top of his lungs? Covering him (them, there are 2 but only one is having this ear-piercing screaming issue lately) does not stop it.

Apparent issue: new parrot in the house , separate cage, it's been almost 2 months; can't put them in separate rooms. I have them situated as best I can so they can see eachother minimally, but that's the best I can do given the open layout of my house. Today especially, the screaming is driving me absolutely insane. The Grey is telling the Amazon "stop it" and I am saying No (and Stop It, obviously). I am trying to remain calm but there is only so much I can take; I work from home and have to be on the phone a lot and he's making it nearly impossible lately.

No, he's not trained (the Amazons were inherited). Suggestions? Other than dragging the Amazon cage outside to the patio (which I could do, this is Arizona) for awhile. Thanks

[entrancedbymyGCC]

Reinforcement = something that causes a behavior to occur more often
Punishment = something that causes a behavior to occur less often
Positive = to add something to the environment
Negative = to remove something from the environment

The problem is that people put value judgment and emotion into these words when they are trying to express something which is neither good nor bad.

The "go-to" method with horses is negative reinforcement, but other methodolgies are successfully used every day more or less without conscious thought. The "go to" method with birds is positive reinforcement, but other approaches can also be effective. What is definitely not recommended is using pain or violence. No matter what the species.

Michael has a point -- the screaming parrot who stops when you enter the room is training you by negative reinforcement -- at the same time you are unwittingly training it by positive reinforcement. Training happens more often informally than formally, IMO.

[evaleen]

(over whelmed)
wow... u guys are parrot-professors! geee. now i have idols!

so basically,
if the bird WANTS to do something bcuz of something we provide, that's POSITIVE reinforcement,
and if it HAS to do something bcuz of some action on our part, that's NEGATIVE reinforcement.
and if the bird is testing the limits it is allowed, and if we guide it without causing a retreat from us, that's conditioning the bird.

(did i get it right?)