Alex the Grey

[Khaiqha]

So I finished reading Alex and Me, and I can't hello but wonder what have happened had Alex been flighted. Do you guys think they would have achieved the same success with Alex if he could fly?

[Michael]

No fricken way. If he could fly to get whatever he wanted, why would he ask for it? If he were flighted, he'd be more of a "real parrot" and do things parrots enjoy doing which would have made him less successful of a scientific study. But then he probably wouldn't have plucked and lived a happier life.

[Khaiqha]

Those are my thoughts as well. Every story I hear from my friends about their birds that talked were pluckers and cage bound, where as the nice ones were flighted and said only a few words at best.

[pollyparrot]

I'm currently also reading the book. We should remember that although most of us might agree we'd wish Alex had been allowed to fly and be more of a bird, the work that came out of that research has changed mindsets about cognitive abilities in parrots.

I really don't think ability to fly has any correlation to the number of words a parrot will say. My timneh boy has been flighted since his first molt and speaks a whole lot. He's 16 now. He's not cage-bound and has only minimally plucked in a couple of spots at certain times of the year. He sings parts of songs, responds to questions, announces when he's pooped, counts to 10 when he feels like cooperating, and on and on. But he has to be in the mood and won't speak every time I might want him to.

[Grey_Moon]

I doubt it---and on the one hand yes he may have opened the door for better respect and understanding of parrots as sentient intelligent beings---it was at great personal cost to Alex as well.
I read somewhere that part of his plucking was due to chronic malnutrition and aspergillosis---he was later put on Harrisons.
You'd think, for all Dr. Pepperberg's gushing about how intelligent he was she'd of stopped treating him like a mindless wind-up toy. I mean, if he was as smart as a five year old what five year old wants to live in a cage, in an artificial lab and have people blabbering at him all day asking the same damn questions? See how many kids would live in a barren cage and answer 'what colour, what matter, how many' all day without going nuts (I'm sorry--I've seen where his cage was--it was barren and bland in an equally bland office).

I mean, she should of realized him asking 'wanna go back' 'want water' was him saying I'm done, I'm bored. But no, she'd just laugh and say he likes interrupting. I'm sorry, but I don't like what she's done in the name of science. I saw her on tv and instantly disliked her. She could of respected him rather than being tickled pink that her 'experiment' was going so well.

The interesting and sad thing is now his 'successors' have begun to pluck as well. She should of learned her lesson the first time---if they all start plucking then you are doing something wrong.

[laducockatiel]

I doubt it---and on the one hand yes he may have opened the door for better respect and understanding of parrots as sentient intelligent beings---it was at great personal cost to Alex as well.
I read somewhere that part of his plucking was due to chronic malnutrition and aspergillosis---he was later put on Harrisons.
You'd think, for all Dr. Pepperberg's gushing about how intelligent he was she'd of stopped treating him like a mindless wind-up toy. I mean, if he was as smart as a five year old what five year old wants to live in a cage, in an artificial lab and have people blabbering at him all day asking the same damn questions? See how many kids would live in a barren cage and answer 'what colour, what matter, how many' all day without going nuts (I'm sorry--I've seen where his cage was--it was barren and bland in an equally bland office).

I mean, she should of realized him asking 'wanna go back' 'want water' was him saying I'm done, I'm bored. But no, she'd just laugh and say he likes interrupting. I'm sorry, but I don't like what she's done in the name of science. I saw her on tv and instantly disliked her. She could of respected him rather than being tickled pink that her 'experiment' was going so well.

The interesting and sad thing is now his 'successors' have begun to pluck as well. She should of learned her lesson the first time---if they all start plucking then you are doing something wrong.

I totally agree with you. It was not fair on Alex to be used for scientific studies, she didn't respect the fact that h e was a parrot, no matter how clever he was, so it's just really cruel that alex had to live a life like this.

[DustyTheGrey]

I doubt it---and on the one hand yes he may have opened the door for better respect and understanding of parrots as sentient intelligent beings---it was at great personal cost to Alex as well.
I read somewhere that part of his plucking was due to chronic malnutrition and aspergillosis---he was later put on Harrisons.
You'd think, for all Dr. Pepperberg's gushing about how intelligent he was she'd of stopped treating him like a mindless wind-up toy. I mean, if he was as smart as a five year old what five year old wants to live in a cage, in an artificial lab and have people blabbering at him all day asking the same damn questions? See how many kids would live in a barren cage and answer 'what colour, what matter, how many' all day without going nuts (I'm sorry--I've seen where his cage was--it was barren and bland in an equally bland office).

I mean, she should of realized him asking 'wanna go back' 'want water' was him saying I'm done, I'm bored. But no, she'd just laugh and say he likes interrupting. I'm sorry, but I don't like what she's done in the name of science. I saw her on tv and instantly disliked her. She could of respected him rather than being tickled pink that her 'experiment' was going so well.

The interesting and sad thing is now his 'successors' have begun to pluck as well. She should of learned her lesson the first time---if they all start plucking then you are doing something wrong.

I totally agree with you. It was not fair on Alex to be used for scientific studies, she didn't respect the fact that h e was a parrot, no matter how clever he was, so it's just really cruel that alex had to live a life like this.

I agree as well!
When I saw his cage my heart broke and hearing him say "wanna go back" just sounded like he had had enough!

[Eurycerus]

Annoyingly enough science often does rather awful things in the name of pursuing knowledge.... although he didn't live a perfect life, he had constant attention and companionship. Not too terrible if you ask me. I wish I could get paid to interact constantly with my parrot. She'd love it. Yeah she'd get annoyed and want to stop but that's understandable.

[laducockatiel]

Annoyingly enough science often does rather awful things in the name of pursuing knowledge.... although he didn't live a perfect life, he had constant attention and companionship. Not too terrible if you ask me. I wish I could get paid to interact constantly with my parrot. She'd love it. Yeah she'd get annoyed and want to stop but that's understandable.

Yeah, but the thing is she didn't get the parrot for a companion, she got him for studies and maybe he got some time out of the cage when she was training him but the rest of the time he was locked up in his cage.

[Eurycerus]

Yeah, but the thing is she didn't get the parrot for a companion, she got him for studies and maybe he got some time out of the cage when she was training him but the rest of the time he was locked up in his cage.

I see what you mean but that bird seemed to be out of its cage probably eight hours a day, plus interaction for a lot of time. That's a lot! Even though the parrot wasn't for a companion but for study, he was the center of attention. Ms. Pepperberg didn't spend a ton of time necessarily but her lab assistants sure did. To me it appears that Alex led a pretty good life. Could it have been better? Yes. However, he got specialized attention, excellent vet care, tons of time out of the cage. Darn good for a lab animal (although he seems to quality for this designation I feel in some regards he was much more to Irene and her various assistants) and even for a companion parrot.

I also think that much of what she accomplished could have been accomplished with a flighted bird. Look at what Michael's done. Although I think Michael was referring to the "Wanna go back" phrase in particular. A lot of the training was in regards to number recognition, color association, and shapes which definitely could have been accomplished. He loved attention (as parrots do) and treats. I think he would have been plenty motivated. That was what she wrote her papers about, not his phrases. She could never prove for sure that he knew what he was saying, although she knew he did. It seems to me clipping a parrot's wings was the thing to do then. Do realize the time at which this was taking place. Not saying it's right but just saying it was not the 2000s.

She showed the world that parrots are not "bird brained" but are intelligent animals that require attention and stimulation. A pioneer. People sneered at her for daring to challenge the conception that parrots just mimic and have no conception of what they're saying.

So you can judge her, and I'm not saying don't, but recognize what she did and that Alex was hardly mistreated or ignored.