Cuttlebone or mineral blocks? (UK)

[Pajarita]

The enzyme reference was on the feeding of milk products for calcium when there are lots and lots of other sources which are healthier for birds (which are not mammals so they lack the necessary enzymes to break down milk or its products).

As to following avian vets recommendations on diet, with all due respect, I don't know what the avian vets study in England but here in the States, they don't study avian nutrition at all (I am not an avian vet but I have the text books) and I doubt it's different in England because, if they did, they would need another 5 years of schooling. Avian nutrition is a field that is in its infancy and every species has a different nutrition ecology and dietary needs (most of them unknown) so the only way to learn is through constant research (studies and field biologists reports) and keeping many different species for a loooooong period of time (and that doesn't include seeing them in an office but living with them day in and day out) so, in reality and contrary to what most people believe, your average avian vet doesn't really know much more than the basics and, in most cases, much less than aviculturists (same goes for behavioral problems). There might be a very few that have put the time and effort into learning and who have kept parrots for a long time but I've been keeping them since 1992 (all rescues) and although I've dealt with, at least, 15 to 20 different AVs, none of them knew diddly squat about it and just repeated the 'feed them pellets' mantra - even for canaries and finches which are natural seed-eaters and which I've been keeping VERY successfully for 45 years.

If I sounded as if I was telling you not to follow your vet's advice, I apologize, that was not my intention. I am just giving you my informed opinion which I am not expecting you to follow just on my word, of course. I wanted to give you a different perspective so you would do your own research and see if you agree or not with your vet because, for one thing, pellets (even TOPs which are the best in terms of pellets as they have no soy or added man-made vitamins) are not the healthiest option, especially for tiels and other small species. They are too dry and end up causing kidney problems because parrots are not hard-wired for drinking a lot of water as they are never meant to eat anything with low water content (plant material, their natural diet, is between 80 and 95% water -check the label for the moisture content on the pellets and you'll see they are only about 4%) and are, instead, meant to derive most of their hydration needs from their food. Now, some birds dunk everything in water (I have a LSC2 that does that even with birdy bread which is VERY moist) so if yours are doing this, then I would assume it should be fine.

I also feed organic -not everything but definitely the items that need to be (the USDA puts out a list every year with the 'dirtiest' and the 'cleanest' produce) and whatever other item that might not be but is easily available and relatively unexpensive. This is not only because feeding everything organic is hugely expensive (I rescue and have a lot of birds) but because there are items that cannot be found organically grown (my parrots eat a HUGE variety of fresh food).

[Eric&Rebecca]

Firstly to address the dairy issue. I feed Lacto-Free, and very very scarcely! Although they love it it's more of a treat than anything else. Birds are lactose intolerant and the lacto-free yoghurt I feed is natural yoghurt and it's literally the tiniest tiniest amount. They get lots of green veggies, fruits, sweet potato, etc daily.

I agree with the case of MOST avian vets in the UK, however my avian vet has been treating for over 25 years and is the registered avian vet for the London Zoo parrot and small parakeet collection as well as a consultant to Loro Parque (I only found this out recently). He has taken various courses in avian behaviour but has more in depth knowledge of nutrition (he has a secondary specialism) although there is another avian vet at the surgery who has more experience in the avian behavioural side of things. Both are also in the process of doing their own avian research as well and own many species themselves. I wouldn't consider him particularly average after visiting 2 or 3 VERY average avian vets.

Smaller birds like cockatiels do benefit from around a 40-50% pellet diet along with fresh foods and small amounts of seeds which is what we are aiming for with both birds. However, this has been easier with George, the younger tiel than Edmund. George was parent raised and the breeder fed him on fresh and seed with eggfood supplement. Edmund was a hand reared and it has been an uphill struggle just to get him to touch TOPS but fortunately he has always been very keen on vegetables. Our avian vet is more for the 'balanced' and rounded diet for smaller parrots/parakeets. He says in the simplest terms they benefit from having some of everything, some pellets, some seeds, some fruits, some veg and chewing bark/mineral perches etc. He said providing they don't eat any of each portion excessively this should make for a well balanced diet. He gave us a list of things we should on feed once per week, twice per week, etc based on levels of vitamins. For cockatiels and similar birds he advises AGAINST full pellet diets, he didn't explain why exactly but this may be why.

With regards to the moisture our cockatiels did increase their water intake slightly on eating TOPS. It's a common story with lots of parrots on this forum that once pellet conversion started it suddently becomes a lot easier to convert to fruits and vegetables (although this was never an issue for us) because they use this to gain more mositure, thus the birds adapts. We also give them moist foods everyday and there is a lot of moisture contained within the fruits and other fresh foods. George stilll has a small amount of the eggfood, purely because he enjoys it and as a young bird its good for his development and gives him a good booster. I've recently started to make this myself where possible using a recipe from the other avian vet and I use all organic ingredients and even down to the bread crumb thickening agent being birdie bread. Edmund , as hard as we try doesn't want to eat it so instead he drinks slightly more or we give him slightly more moist fruits. Our vet said that providing we don't give too much pellets and continue with daily moist fruit and vegetables the cockatiels will be getting enough moisture. Due to the diet we feed our cockatiels our birds are still getting the moisture from their food as you desrcibe, I don't fed them just pellets and seeds with small amounts of vegetables. At the moment we are at about 35% pellets with Edmund and I don't intend of going any higher for the reason that our vet has suggested a more balacned diet

Additionally, we are in the UK there is not so many things that we can get for our birds as in the US or other areas. We have to make do with TOPS pellets and substitute other areas of the diet with what we can.

[cml]

I ordered a few of the bee pollen perches.

Leroy, who never is phased with any new toys or perches or anything, was completely terrified of it, and crashed around in his cage until I let him out . I removed the bee pollen perch, and things are calmer again, if a little agitated.

Stitch is very wary of his, but not panicking. What is it with these perches that make them scary? Is it the shape or the colour?

[Pajarita]

I don't know. I don't use them -are they brightly colored?

[cml]

Yes, quite so, but that havnt been a problem in the past...

[Shelby]

For people who may be wary of giving their birds dairy products (even lactose-free), one of my friends used to feed her cockatiel scrambled eggs with the ground up shell mixed in once in a while and he LOVED it. Her avian vet said that was a good way to get calcium to the bird if you don't have a cuttlebone.

[Pajarita]

It's also a very good way to get the bird to have a cardio-vascular episode with all the cholesterol the bird is eating with no way of metabolizing or getting rid of it (birds do not consume any real amount of cholesterol in their wild diet -insect meat doesn't have any- so their bodies don't have an effective mechanism to get rid of the cholesterol they ingest when we feed them eggs or meat). I used to feed my birds hard-boiled eggs on occasion but no longer do after somebody called my attention to this fact and I did research on it.